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  1. #1
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    Default Crime, Fear, Saftey, etc.

    There's no reason to be afraid. The trail is far safer than most of the rest of the country. Meredeth's case is awful, but there's an average of around 44 murders a day in the US (there are actually more than that, but in many areas administrations rig the statistics to make it appear that they're doing a good job). Far more still die to car crashes, and even more still die after having spent most of thier lives wishing they could do something as awe inspiring as thru-hike, but never doing it.

    Sensational news stories such as Merideth's shock us, as they should. But what's even more shocking are how frequent such crimes are.


    To females (this post began as a response to Cindy's thread in the female forum, but I felt that this forum would be a more appropiate place to post it) : As a female you are statistically much safer in a group of strangers than a male is.

    "In 2004, 1,807 females in the United States were murdered by males in cases in which a single offender killed a single victim. In more than nine in ten of these cases (92 percent), the victim was murdered by someone she knew."

    Most victims and perpetrators in homicides are male
    Male offender/Male victim 65.3%
    Male offender/Female victim 22.7%
    Female offender/Male victim 9.6%
    Female offender/Female victim 2.4%

    There's always a reason to be careful, but in general the trail is a safe place. A Million people a year use the AT, and in the last two decades only a few have been murdered. For every 100,000 americans, around 5.5 are murdered every year. There's no way to match those two statistics accurately to each other, but they do give the feel that the AT is a far safer place than much of America as far as crime is concerned. Factor in the lack of traffic deaths on the AT, and the health benifits of hiking, and spending time on the AT is really one of the safest, healthiest things you can do for yourself.

  2. #2
    Registered User Waterbuffalo's Avatar
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    I agree... how many miles have we hiked with out any problems before? This one just hit a little closer to home.
    "Sometimes you have to make a clean break from the past to make a new beginning"

  3. #3
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    Default

    Statistics are great to quote, but when a woman is out on the trail with no one but herself to keep herself alive and prevent being rapped statistics don’t feel so good.

    Statistics say yy house is not going to burn down anytime in my life, statistics say it’s unlikely my home is going to be broken into, statistics say I won’t have an auto accident if I go shopping today. statistics say I won’t have any major medical problem

    But I still have home insurance. I still lock my doors at night; I have coverage on my car, and I have medical coverage.


    If we follow your argument to it’s logical conclusion, we could stop buying insurance, never lock out doors, and don’t have to pay for expensive medical coverage. We never have to worry about what could happen because it’s extremely unlikely to happen.

    But in the real world things do happen, homes burn down, people get sick, cars bump into other cars, things go wrong and criminals prey on people. So the smart person plans for things like this and do what they can to be protected and to minimize the chance of problems.

  4. #4
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    Default

    I don't think you are really implying that insurance is the answer in this case, but it is funny sometimes how people sometimes talk of insurance as a preventative measure. It is of course only a contingency measure. Regardless of the statistics if I was a female I would make my own choices, but I'm not so I won't make them for them. As a father of one I'm still figuring some things out.

  5. #5
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    Let us do this day
    Our daily hikes
    Let Karma come
    To do as it likes

    We are spirit
    Can never be hurt
    We can not be covered
    In the dirt.

    No body
    No dream
    Knows who we are
    We live beyond all this
    By far.

    There is no death
    Only its belief
    There is no sorrow
    Beyond this grief.

    We think we are here
    A mere mortal waif
    While always at home
    Within our Source..completely loved, invulnerable and safe.

    Sandalwood

  6. #6
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    I don’t think you are really implying that insurance is the answer in this case

    No I’m not. I’m just pointing out that a wise person takes precautions.

    Personal awareness of what could happen and then taking action to prevent the rape & murder is what I see as the answer.


    For the most part police don’t prevent crime; they take reports of crimes, and then try to find out who committed the crime so the courts can punish the culprit. Police generally come onto the scene after the crime, they mop up the mess. The only way police prevent any crime is through the threat of being arrested, but on an isolated trail this police threat seems small, this empowers the criminal.

    When a woman is out on the trail, there is only one person that is able to protect her, herself. Not an abstract law against rape or murder.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob S View Post
    Statistics are great to quote, but when a woman is out on the trail with no one but herself to keep herself alive and prevent being rapped statistics don’t feel so good.

    Statistics say yy house is not going to burn down anytime in my life, statistics say it’s unlikely my home is going to be broken into, statistics say I won’t have an auto accident if I go shopping today. statistics say I won’t have any major medical problem

    But I still have home insurance. I still lock my doors at night; I have coverage on my car, and I have medical coverage.


    If we follow your argument to it’s logical conclusion, we could stop buying insurance, never lock out doors, and don’t have to pay for expensive medical coverage. We never have to worry about what could happen because it’s extremely unlikely to happen.

    But in the real world things do happen, homes burn down, people get sick, cars bump into other cars, things go wrong and criminals prey on people. So the smart person plans for things like this and do what they can to be protected and to minimize the chance of problems.
    These are good points, however the problem here is that getting "insurance" against being attacked while hiking requires significant lifestyle changes, such as carrying a gun (illegally) or refraining from doing what you love. I think insurance on a home, car, health or anything else requires a lot less of a sacrifice lifestyle-wise. However if protecting yourself from these things required you to always drive in groups of two cars or more, or always be at your home to prevent fire I think we would be a lot more resistant to taking those steps. In the end, we do what we can to be safe but we just have to keep on living. Thats why statistics can be comforting, because if you're not going to let this kind of madness alter your enjoyment of nature, then you just have to trust that you'll be alright.

    That is why I have a very high respect for people like George Washington, Stonewall Jackson and George Patton. All of these guys were absolutely fearless on the battlefield, because they put their trust in God. Jackson said that he felt just as safe on the battlefield as he did in his own bed, because when the lord decided it was his time, then it was his time. Patton believed that there was either a bullet or shell out there with his name on it, or there was not. Nothing he did would change that, so he might as well be as fearless as possible to inspire those around him.
    "I always told you I was more of a Westerner than an Easterner"
    -Theodore Roosevelt

    Appalachian Trail 2008

    Colorado Trail 2010

  8. #8
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    you pack your bible, i'll pack my gun. see who lives. it's all about choices

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by L. Wolf View Post
    you pack your bible, i'll pack my gun.
    I'll pack lunch.

  10. #10
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    your choice. you choose to be a defenseless victim too

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by L. Wolf View Post
    your choice.
    Pastrami on rye, with mustard. Yumm.

  12. #12
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    I took from the 1st post we shouldn't use this tragic event as a reason to avoid/ fear our passion of the AT. We all chose how we are prepared.
    "Sometimes you have to make a clean break from the past to make a new beginning"

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by L. Wolf View Post
    you pack your bible, i'll pack my gun. see who lives. it's all about choices
    Daniel carried only a slingshot and used a stone to slay the giant.

  14. #14
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    Default

    I agree waterbuffalo. If we let an act of senseless violence like this keep us from hiking or doing anything else that we would do prior to this event, then the bad guys win.

    No-one ever promised us that it would be safe on the trail. There are many things that can happen out there and cause us damage or death. It just shouldn't be our fellow man.

    What we can or should do is increase our vigilence to protect ourselves and our fellow hikers. If you are out in the woods you must be prepared to protect yourself. Whether that is with a gun, a hiking pole, pepper spray a big stick whatever.

    Being a victim is not noble and I for one am not willing to turn the other cheek to someone that is out to injure me or mine.
    If you don't make waves, it means you ain't paddling

  15. #15
    As in "dessert" not "desert"
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by _terrapin_ View Post
    I'll pack lunch.
    I'll take a bible, lunch and a gun. Ain't that heavy.

  16. #16
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    There is a saying in Islam. Mohammad trusted in God, but still tied up his camel.
    SGT Rock
    http://hikinghq.net

    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
    -----------------------------------------

    NO SNIVELING

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by L. Wolf View Post
    your choice. you choose to be a defenseless victim too
    Just asking.
    How do you pack so accessible?
    Don't get me wrong, I believe in a persons right to carry.

    I can see where you might defend your personal shelter rather handy but that short access time while hiking or resting.

    This latest incident seems to have had to be done very quickly with the victim unaware.

    Even "Wild Bill" holding aces and eights went out surprised I'm sure.

    While hiking it's not like you can put your hand on your pistol everytime you interact with another.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    There is a saying in Islam. Mohammad trusted in God, but still tied up his camel.
    And Oliver Cromwell had a little saying: "Put your trust in God but keep your powder dry."

    And I certainly am not saying that Stonewall Jackson wasn't packing heat. (Army of the Shenandoah, I would say, is some serious heat) However there comes a point when we have taken all of the practicable steps of prevention and have to decide when to take risks to accomplish our goals. I would say that for hiking, you have to draw that line somewhere. On the one exreme end is to A. jump in the bushes and hide every time you pass another hiker. B. draw your gun and keep it trained on every person you meet, until they pass or C. Not go hiking at all.

    Those, I think would be the absolute safest options. However, being that those may be impractical for some you have to figure out where to scale that back to. Do you take a gun? If so, how are you going to draw it and use it when you need it? In other words, how do you keep a gun invisible yet somewhere you can "outdraw" a criminal? Nevermind that you would be carrying illegally through the national parks. I think anything less than options A, B or C would expose you to considerable danger to any determined criminal you meet. That being said, what control do we really have over such a situation?

    Me, I like the food idea. But as far as weapons go I will have two guns (left arm, right arm), two hiking poles and of course the head on my shoulders. If I am in a situation that requires more than that I am probably in over my head anyways.

    The bottom line here is that the trail is no more dangerous today than it was on December 31. In fact, it is probably safer. Just like the skies were probably the safest to fly in late September of 2001. So do whatever you were doing before, and don't worry about these nutjobs because they are just that - nutjobs, and they can find you in your bed at home, on the street in your town, or on the Appalachian Trail.
    "I always told you I was more of a Westerner than an Easterner"
    -Theodore Roosevelt

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    Colorado Trail 2010

  19. #19
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    If I thought I needed to take a gun hiking I would quit hiking. I know others disagree.

  20. #20
    First Sergeant SGT Rock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdavidse View Post
    And Oliver Cromwell had a little saying: "Put your trust in God but keep your powder dry."

    And I certainly am not saying that Stonewall Jackson wasn't packing heat. (Army of the Shenandoah, I would say, is some serious heat) However there comes a point when we have taken all of the practicable steps of prevention and have to decide when to take risks to accomplish our goals. I would say that for hiking, you have to draw that line somewhere. On the one exreme end is to A. jump in the bushes and hide every time you pass another hiker. B. draw your gun and keep it trained on every person you meet, until they pass or C. Not go hiking at all.

    Those, I think would be the absolute safest options. However, being that those may be impractical for some you have to figure out where to scale that back to. Do you take a gun? If so, how are you going to draw it and use it when you need it? In other words, how do you keep a gun invisible yet somewhere you can "outdraw" a criminal? Nevermind that you would be carrying illegally through the national parks. I think anything less than options A, B or C would expose you to considerable danger to any determined criminal you meet. That being said, what control do we really have over such a situation?

    Me, I like the food idea. But as far as weapons go I will have two guns (left arm, right arm), two hiking poles and of course the head on my shoulders. If I am in a situation that requires more than that I am probably in over my head anyways.

    The bottom line here is that the trail is no more dangerous today than it was on December 31. In fact, it is probably safer. Just like the skies were probably the safest to fly in late September of 2001. So do whatever you were doing before, and don't worry about these nutjobs because they are just that - nutjobs, and they can find you in your bed at home, on the street in your town, or on the Appalachian Trail.
    I tend to agree with you on the safety of the trail. The sociopaths of the area will probably avoid it like cockroaches avoid the light as every person in ever trail town starts scrutinizing the vagrant looking folks around. I have noticed more intense scrutiny of myself in the last 4 days whenever I am around town folks or even other hiker (but so far only day hikers on the BMT other than me). The last two places I stopped at they were talking about ever vagrant looking guy that had been through in the last year trying to decide if they were axe murderers. I imagine that local police will start hassling people living out of cars.

    Add to that the fear of more people bringing guns. I am personally more worried that someone that is packing heat, doesn't know what they are doing, and has never been in a true shoot/no shoot situation will decide someday I am the crazy hillbilly and shoot me first thinking I am the threat for some obscure reasoning they have. What would really be a capper on all that is two gun totin' frightened hikers pulling pistols on each other because they both sense a threat and both prove themselves right.

    There is such a thing as getting too worked up.
    SGT Rock
    http://hikinghq.net

    My 2008 Trail Journal of the BMT/AT

    BMT Thru-Hikers' Guide
    -----------------------------------------

    NO SNIVELING

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