Trail Safety

[Jan LiteShoe]

Some of the beloved, and "scruffy, older men" (their reference) on this site expressed concerns as to how they will now be perceived on the trail.
Good subject.

Clearly, the recent Emerson murders suggests one's sense of concern can be lulled.
I can see that, as a friendly-natured person, I'd likely have conversed and hiked along with GBH, and that is a chilling thought.

I don't know that anything Meredith could have done would have kept her safe, short of cutting off conversation with GBH in an almost rude fashion, and walking to another hiker for support. But she would have had to have felt a sense of unease first. It's likely she felt safe with the perp, since the two passed other hikers yet continued walking with their dogs, a friendly and social activity.

As women, what sort of actions, talk, looks, movements, whatever put you on edge? What would you prefer, in terms of feeling safe? What senses do you feel have kept you safe? What else?
Clearly, the recent Emerson murders suggests one's sense of concern can be lulled.

Gentlemen, perhaps you've sorted out already ways of allowing women to feel safe in your hiking presence. Speak your experiences.

I will commence, with the caveat that I expressed above - I don't have a clue. My feelings of safety could be dead wrong.

But "space" is one initial indicator I observe in a trail meeting.
I do not like to feel crowded. And I do not like to be shadowed by strangers.
And in response to a "ladies first" I will now reply, "no thanks, you lead."

As I said, it's not reliable, because a cunning sort will lull you.
But it's a start.

[Jan LiteShoe]

Probably "Trail Ettiquette" is a better title. Or...?

[JAK]

Until today I had never thought about changing my appearance to make women in particular more at ease, but it makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Even though I've been married several years I still resist my wife and daughter trying to tell me what to wear and how to cut my hair and shave and so forth, but perhaps there is something to it more than fashion. Perhaps just a small gesture here or there might be sufficient. It would be interesting to hear some suggestions from ladies as to what particular details might make a difference.

I think it is still largely behavioural measures that make people feel more at risk or more at ease, though appearances do make a huge diffference in how people judge you. Of course appearances can also be deceiving, and both behaviour and appearance can be highly subjective, and sometimes deliberately deceiptful. Some 'gentlemen' are not what they appear. But that is perhaps a subject for a different thread. I look forward to hearing some suggestions.

[Just a Hiker]

I think giving people "space" is important to making them feel at ease. I have camped with women, who at first seemed a bit nervous, but after giving them space and being respectful, they were okay. Also, not being overly interested in "their Hike" and not asking alot of personal questions helps as well.


Just Jim

[JAK]

That is good advice. Perhaps I should have said I would be interested in hearing some good advice from gentlemen also, as well as the ladies. The right 'distance' can be tricky sometimes, but in general good manners is always a good guide. Harder to find good examples of this today. Perhaps there was more the 'etiquite' in the old days than just getting along or ahead in society. It was neccessary for people to feel safe.

[Almost There]

I always wear my wedding ring...and not intentionally, but I talk about my wife quite a bit, maybe it makes ladies more comfortable, or at least I have never felt like I make women uneasy on the trail...guess I am just that great a guy!!!

Seriously though, my wife and mother both made the statement that ladies need to trust their first instincts, alot of young women will get a vibe but not wanting to judge will give benefit of doubt. As my lady said, "when alone better to be wrong about someone and safe than to end up in some dude's old well about to become a human coat." Yes, there is a reason I love her!

[Gaiter]

I like talking w/ everyone I meet, no matter what age, I give everyone a chance, which probably isn't the safest thing, but really what are the chances of something happening.
I aggree w/ you, jan, space is very important, my personal space bubble seems to be twice as large when i'm hiking.

i get nervous around others if i find out they have a gun, i really really don't like guns, typically i limit my conversation w/ them.

I did meet one person who made me very unconfortable, so i left, it was raining, the sun was barely lighting the sky and i was just waking up, when i heard someone walk up. The man who was obviously mentally handicapped came into the shelter, he was nearly soaked to the bone, and made your average thru-hiker smell good. His daypack had broken, so I offered to sew it together for him, I figured he seemed nice enough and I was going to be waiting for the rain to stop anyways. I started talking to him while fixing his daypack, and thats when he made me uncomfortable, he talked about his behavior problems (he said sometimes he acts like a little kid, sometimes a grown up, but sometimes he doesn't know what happens when he gets mad and becomes violent) and his mom dieing from cancer, he had taken a bus in the middle of the night and started hiking around 2am, doing 4miles (some was rough terrain), he was going to surprise his friend
I kept trying to change the subject to happier things, but his mood seemed more and more depressing, so I packed up and left, said I couldn't wait for the rain any longer. He was probably completely harmless, but i didn't want to be around if he snapped.

[4eyedbuzzard]

GMH looked like a lot of other older hikers you might meet. Some mention was made of his bad teeth, but that isn't all that uncommon at age 60. I know plenty of denture wearers, etc. Anyone on the trail for more than a weekend or so is likely to look pretty unkempt and even "scary" at times.

I'm usually talkative and social, and most people especially women are at ease around me. Usually I'll mention my wife and kids, where I'm from, where I've hiked from and where I'm going, etc. I'f I were a woman I think I'd be leery of a male that comments on appearance, or asks questions as to companions etc too quickly. I'd also be leery of someone who wanted to or kept on hiking along. Both of these will normally however prove to be complete misreads of innocent behavior.

All that said though, figuring out that someone has evil intent is probably near impossible. Much more likely is misreading innocent converstaion and behavior.

[Tipi Walter]

When I was younger and looked like Brad Pitt with a goatee , I easily talked to women everywhere I went and especially on hiking trails and while out backpacking.

In the last ten years and when I'm out backpacking, I am for the most part invisible to most women, or at least a non-cipher, and this has mostly to do with my age. My behavior now is to say hello and turn away when once I would strive to keep talking. Turning away is quick and final, and it gives the woman a chance to follow up if need be or to end it quick and let it go.

And it's all about perception, intuition and gut. Some people are more perceptive than others, a very helpful womanly trait when out hiking(and good for men, too).

The sad fact is, women are targets and have been since the beginning of human history. Men look at women with ulterior motives(natural biology), and some broken men look at women as fair game, a vulnerable victim in their broken agendas.

On the other hand, the backpacking community is a tight-knit group and a safe group. What backpacker is gonna hurt a hiking woman?? Road access and parking lots are places a woman should be vigilant, and when on the trail if a man(especially a man w/o a full backpack--just look at his gear), self-invites to follow along, beware.

The solution: If perception says run, run. Get back to your car and go home, quickly, or find other hikers and explain your situation. Dayhikers have it worse in some ways than backpackers since dayhikers must often turn back in their hike whereas a backpacker can make the miles and outwalk her stalker.

Anyway, just LOOK at the person, is he wearing hiking shoes? Does he have a daypack? Water bottles? Hiking stick? Determining this part is easy, what to do about it is the hard part.

[rafe]

I try to size up people. I'm comfortable with all kinds of hikers, particularly section hikers and thru-hikers. I'm always a bit more wary of people in the woods without packs -- even though the vast majority of those folks are fine too. True long-distance hikers are easy to identify, IMO.

I'm most wary of posers and/or men in camo -- folks with bulging packs who clearly haven't hiked very far. There are telltale signs -- gear that's clearly out-of-place, like large knives, metal canteens, certain types of boots, and the like. If I see someone with a totally absurd camp routine, I'll move on. I figure I'm probably not going to enjoy their company anyway, and we're not going to have much to talk about.

[JAK]

It's ironic in a way, but maybe not.
When you are on a 'date' you should ask about the other person not talk about yourself too much.
When you are not on a date, perhaps you shouldn't.

I think it always helps when there are others around. When you run into a woman alone I think you really have to make an extra effort to make them feal at ease, whatever that is. It like proper etiquite. What's proper? It's whatever makes your company feel at ease. Still gets complicated, sometimes you gotta let them sort that out. I've met some strange ladies also. I gave one a lift hitchhiking and I don't mind talking to some pretty strange people but when she started peeing in public right on the side of the highway I just had to drive away.

[Frosty]

i get nervous around others if i find out they have a gun, i really really don't like guns, typically i limit my conversation w/ them.

I get nervous if I find out someone has a gun, also. I'm comfortable with guns and like them, but am distrustful of the mindset of the person who not only packs a gun on the AT, but lets others know he is packing. There's something not right there, and it is someone I avoid UNLESS I know them. Also, I would be less concerned about a woman who carried a gun than a guy. Sexist, maybe, but there you go. The truth in not always PC.

As far as Liteshoe's original question, I usually don't interact with women a whole lot differently than men on the trail. I pass the time, make jokes about the trail or water sources or food or whatever the topic du jour is. If a woman (or man) is open to conversation, it's easy for me to get into a conversation.

When a woman or man is standoffish or for whatever reason someone I would not have fun talking with, I don't try to converse with them.

I think most men (and women) are this way. Who wants to hang around someone uneasy or remote or whatever in your presence? A warning bell for me would be someone pushing conversation when you obviously want no part of it, especially if he is asking about your friends or itinerary.

But then, a smart stalker would have a goal and a purpose to make you comfortable in his presence, so he'd probably be seen as a lot more fun to hang around with than I would. Not that I'm all the much fun, anyway.

No easy answers. Someone said to follow your instincts, and that is an excellent idea.

Many times the advice is if uncomfortable with one man, to let other men know. This is a good idea, but pick you men carefully. Some men are quick to react (say it isn't so!) and unless you want to see a confrontation with someone defending "your honor," pick a guy you think will not go off and pick a fight, and explain this up front. Explaining up will also help ensure he won't mistake your sudden interest in him, and either shy away or become a nuisance himself.

Sorry for the long-winded reply.

[Bolo]

I think giving people "space" is important to making them feel at ease. I have camped with women, who at first seemed a bit nervous, but after giving them space and being respectful, they were okay. Also, not being overly interested in "their Hike" and not asking alot of personal questions helps as well.


Just Jim

Agreed. However, stalkers may give a person lots of "space" and then suddenly attack. Was there any indication that she was stalked, prior to having a conversation with him?

[V8]

Well, one thing that can help a little is having a high name recognition - I've been following WB and TrailJournals for a long time, and participating more and more on both as hiking departure time nears. It's likely that a good number of people's trail names will be familiar to me, and I to them, which reduces a little of the unknown factor.(It would help more if I'd been able to get to some rucks...!)

When people come wandering into a shelter, recognizing their names makes it quicker to develop conversation and some sense of safety. Of course not all people with trailnames on WB and TJ are necessarily "safe", but you know what I mean. It's taking the opposite approach from anonymity, but I think it will help more than harm.

There is so little that can be done to assure complete safety - much common sense strategy simply doesn't help much (ie, stay in daylight, walk with a dog, walk with another person). Guns and mace don't help if you can't get at them, and if they are readily available then they are easily used against you. And getting bad vibes is only helpful if you get them soon enough to do something about it. Painful truths.

[rafe]

V8 -- don't assume that a majority of hikers are members of Whiteblaze or have even heard of it. There's no basis for that assumption, and in fact it's entirely unwarranted and false.

[Smile]

Well, one thing that can help a little is having a high name recognition - I've been following WB and TrailJournals for a long time, and participating more and more on both as hiking departure time nears. It's likely that a good number of people's trail names will be familiar to me, and I to them, which reduces a little of the unknown factor.(It would help more if I'd been able to get to some rucks...!)

Terrapin, you're right about that. I've met lots of hikers who have never heard of WB.

Be careful here on line as well. There are those who will stop at nothing in an attempt to identify you.There are psychotics out there who think they are "web sleuths" who may attempt to identify you ( or someone they think is you), look up names similar to yours and such. I have dealt with this first hand, and it is unsettling that it can happen to any one of us here.

At this time, its good that these things are being discussed. What else are the ladies doing to protect themselves out there?

[JAK]

Also some Whiteblazers have never hiked the trail and could end up being real creeps.
I know I'm not a real creep. Just saying.

[maxNcathy]

Good points above..is he a real hiker!! smell,gear,distance hiked today, if really weird speed up the trail and go off trail out of sight in woods and camp.

I would tell my daughter..stay in a group of 4 or more of all ages, men and women at all times.

If alone and confronted with a sure maniac and attack seemed likely, I would try to get his/her mind on something that would strike a deep chord within...I might ask, " Tell me about all the people that were not nice to you as a kid." or " tell me about the best friend you ever had." or tell me about your mother or Grandmother.."

feed him all kinds of sympathy..a dog may not bite the hand that feeds it.

Fake a heart attack as a last resort...writhe and roll and scream in pain and stagger down the trail..........culateralligator.

Sandalwood

[iesman69]

Terrapin had a good idea when noticing a particular hiker's gear, or what they say their itinerary is. Also, when approaching any other hiker(male or female), I always try to make them aware of my presence and once in their presence, I try to maintain some space/distance as well.

While out last summer for a section hike thru GA, I leapfrogged a couple of days with a guy I referred to as Crazy Mitch. He wasn't your typical hiker-type, wearing army-issue combat boots, carrying a machete and large hunting knife, had no sleeping "system", and had little food. While I(and some others) thought him to be quite comical at times, at least on one occasion a fellow hiker and his girlfriend found him to be very irrational and irritating! What I thought of as humorous, another couple found creepy! Even tho he seemed harmless to me, I still kept my distance from him b/c there was that little something that made me think he may have been out of place.

That being said, vigilance is certainly the best policy; know your surroundings. Doesn't mean danger is around every corner, just means you're being cautious.

[Lone Wolf]

so profiling is OK on the trail