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  1. #81
    Getting out as much as I can..which is never enough. :) Mags's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAKS View Post
    since the thread has been moved, please delete my post. thanks!
    It is done!
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  2. #82
    Registered User BackTrack1's Avatar
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    sounds like hypothermia to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackTrack1 View Post
    sounds like hypothermia to me
    The Cuse is in the House - O My God!!!

  4. #84

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    Well, since we are discussing what to do, I'll take the case of my suspicions. You try to figure out whether she's on drugs or not and hope to talk her down. Try being friendly, understanding, calm, and unthreatening. Sit down. Let the person decide the course of action, but try to present helpful suggestions. Would you like to call a friend? Offer some kind of lifeline. There's a good chance she was on hallucinogens. If you can establish that, entertain the person. OTOH she may have been mentally ill, but some of the same tactics work.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
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  5. #85
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    Am I just really tired or was this article written in early December? Not that that makes it less interesting - but I was wondering if that is the case, then do we have an updated news report out of Boulder? Sorry if this is repeated in the pages of posts.

  6. #86

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    One other thing for other situations. You help the person as much as you can without further endangering them. They're dying. Damn the consequences you're doing the right thing. Try not to chase her off a cliff though.

    Quote Originally Posted by fivel View Post
    Am I just really tired or was this article written in early December? Not that that makes it less interesting - but I was wondering if that is the case, then do we have an updated news report out of Boulder? Sorry if this is repeated in the pages of posts.
    Yes it was and I haven't seen any follow up.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
    Robert Hunter & Ron McKernan

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  7. #87
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    There is a good possibility that the fact she was naked wasn't caused by hypothermia but obviously being naked in 14 degree temps would certainly lead to hypothermia.

    One of the first signs of hypothermia is loss of fine motor skills such as being able to unzip clothing or unlace boots and most of us have had that problem at one time or other but we were still thinking rationally. By the time the core temperature is low enough to start affecting brain function you probably won't be capable of completely undressing. Getting third hand (or worse) information like this you really can't tell what problem caused this but I'd suspect that the initial cause was not heat related.

    As to rendering aid, the person who tried to help by offering clothing, then called for help, seemed to do everything he possibly could. Having had WFA for years, I know that in NH I can't give help to anyone that refuses it, no matter how bad the situation may appear. One EMT trainer said that sometimes you have to hope that an injured person refusing 1st aid becomes non-responsive then you will have 'implied consent' and can treat them.

    NH has a Good Samaritan law that states if you do the best of your ability and do nothing beyond your capabilities, you should be held blameless for what may happen. If you decide to help in a situation such as this, you have to continue aid until you can give control to someone with a higher level of training, like an EMT, hospital, etc. The only escape clause is when continuing aid in an impossible situation would endanger you as well.

  8. #88
    Springer - Front Royal Lilred's Avatar
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    I was talking to a ranger in the smokies and he told me that many people that are found froze to death are found naked, it's just not reported. He explained to me that hypothermia's final stages makes the person feel like they're on fire, hence the stripping of clothes to try to cool off.
    "It was on the first of May, in the year 1769, that I resigned my domestic happiness for a time, and left my family and peaceable habitation on the Yadkin River, in North Carolina, to wander through the wilderness of America." - Daniel Boone

  9. #89
    Registered User A-Train's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Find one of my posts that was in bad taste and I will apologize.

    Go **** yourselves.
    How bout that one?
    Anything's within walking distance if you've got the time.
    GA-ME 03, LT 04/06, PCT 07'

  10. #90

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    never mind!

    geek

  11. #91
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    If it was here in New Brunswick, and it was that cold, and I thought I could catch her I would run after her and give her help whether she wanted it or not. Damn the consequences. I'm 45. If I do jail time for it. As for possible litigation, I don't have much to lose. If it was some place else it would depend on my assessment of the situation, but I would hope that I would do the same thing.

    If folks want to misinterpret my posts, or what others have implied, please think twice.

  12. #92
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    I meant to say, if I ended up doing jail time for it, so be it if I thought it might save a life. I didn't quite complete that sentence. In normal first aid situations I might respond differently, but in this situation, if I thought it was a case of hypothermia, that's what I would do.

  13. #93
    Registered User t-bor's Avatar
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    boots socks and a smile the only way to hike

  14. #94
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    What do they teach in first aid in various jurisdictions about helping people when they refuse help, but your assessment is that they aren't in a state where they are able to do so rationally. I'm pretty sure here in New Brunswick you can go ahead and help them anyway. There could be consequences, but if it could be shown that either your assessment was correct, or you had reasonable cause to believe it was correct, that there would not be consequences, either criminal or civil.

    Worth discussing?

  15. #95
    jersey joe jersey joe's Avatar
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    I think helping someone in that situation might fall under the good samaritin law or something.

  16. #96
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    Of course you would also have to demonstrate that you were causing less harm or less risk by helping them than by letting them go on there way and calling the authorities. This would be easier in a case of a small child or an infirmed person. For someone in their twenties it would depend on their size and so forth. You could also try and follow them if that was a better course of action, if you could keep up. They might run, but that is not a bad thing when someone is hypothermic, as long as you are capable of catching them and treating them when they eventually bonk.

    I'm not saying the first responder did the wrong thing. It sounds to me like he couldn't catch her or react fast enough. It was also a fairly contained area where there would be a fairly good chance of finding her. Not sure exactly what his thinking was, and I wasn't there. Just discussing such situations in general. It is really not that uncommon.

    I think the newspaper article was irresponsible. The headline was very poor. There also could have been some mention about the possiblity of the hypothermia, which was my first impression. I've got nothing against nude hiking, but I don't think the newspaper article served public interests by characterizing her situation in this way and them leaving the story totally hanging.

  17. #97
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    Drowning is a similar situation. I'm not much of a swimmer and I've never taken any life guard training other that the basics thru first aid and the olf Walter Safety stuff. Extend your reach and all that. Usually the problem there is not that the person doesn't want help but that they might want to drag you down with them. In the old days weren't you supposed to knock them unconscious if you had to, or something like that?

  18. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Of course you would also have to demonstrate that you were causing less harm or less risk by helping them than by letting them go on there way and calling the authorities. This would be easier in a case of a small child or an infirmed person. For someone in their twenties it would depend on their size and so forth. You could also try and follow them if that was a better course of action, if you could keep up. They might run, but that is not a bad thing when someone is hypothermic, as long as you are capable of catching them and treating them when they eventually bonk.

    I'm not saying the first responder did the wrong thing. It sounds to me like he couldn't catch her or react fast enough. It was also a fairly contained area where there would be a fairly good chance of finding her. Not sure exactly what his thinking was, and I wasn't there. Just discussing such situations in general. It is really not that uncommon.

    I think the newspaper article was irresponsible. The headline was very poor. There also could have been some mention about the possiblity of the hypothermia, which was my first impression. I've got nothing against nude hiking, but I don't think the newspaper article served public interests by characterizing her situation in this way and them leaving the story totally hanging.
    the newspaper isn't committed to be the totally detailed document...it is committed to make you interested and buy the newspaper.

    in the U.S. (Pennsylvania), if the person is of sound mind to answer normal questions correctly and you still treat or transport against their will it is assault and kidnapping.

    geek

  19. #99
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    I understand that about 'some' newspapers. I'm not exactly committed to defending such newspapers, and so I feel free to criticize them. It wasn't totally tabloid, but they could have done better. That's all I'm saying.

    If I was in Pennsylvania I would do it anyway regardless of the law if I thought it would save her life, but that is on the assumption that she would not be of sound mind if she was hypothermic. I wouldn't assume she was hypothermic simply because she was naked. It would depend on the wind chill factor and her behaviour.

    In some other cultures it might be wrong to help someone under some circumstances even if they are not of sound mind at the time, and if I was dealing with such a culture I might consider respecting that. Legalities and risks of litigation I do not have so much patience for. Common sense and good conscience must prevail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Of course you would also have to demonstrate that you were causing less harm or less risk by helping them than by letting them go on there way and calling the authorities. ***.
    The first rule for 'first responders' is, "Make sure you are safe." The second rule is, "Call or send for help." Attacking someone who runs off violates both rules.

    TW
    "Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service

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