Shelter ethics.

[Tin Man]

This conversation is going doing the toilet.

[The Weasel]

While some won't be satisfied no matter what is said on the topic of solid waste in the outback, I'll add a couple more items. All are CDC materials, and if you don't know what the CDC is, you should look that up.

The first - "Giardiasis Surveillance- United States 1998-2002" agrees with me that there are a large, and growing, number of cases of giardiasis nationally. While some will argue with my use of the term "explosion" in growth, I'm characterizing that in my historic terms - from the 50s to the present - and if you want to quibble with that, fine. But giardiasis is reported in 46 states, northern more than southern, and is a serious GI problem (no, I'm not talking about soldiers).

The second - "Giardiasis Surveillance - United States 1992-1997" - makes it pretty clear that there is an "explosion" (although that term isn't used), with reported cases doubling in that period from 12,700 to over 27,000 annually. (The first report notes that in 2002 they are about 20,000, which represents a 50% increase over 1992.)

In terms of the "explosion", however, one of the conclusions of the authors of the 1998-2002 report is really significant: Actual cases are probably in the range from over 400,000 to 2,100,000 annually (they conclude that the actual number probably falls in between this estimates). An appropriate assumption from this is that actual cases fall in the average of this range, or about 1,250,000 annually. Assuming (again) that each case would happen to a different person, that means that about 1 in 20 Americans will suffer from it each year.

It's not just a "wilderness" disease, I know. But one of the key points in public health (a lawyer? how does he know such things? Well, leave aside that I've been fascinated by it since I earned Public Health Merit Badge back in 1959, my wife's son just changed from Ph.D. candidate to Ph.D. yesterday, in public health, so I kind of have a resident expert around) is that in home environments there are specific things that need to be done to prevent it which are commonly followed by most people, such as chlorination of swimming pools and sanitary plumbing systems. In the wilderness, though, there isn't much being done, and there is a tremendous septic solid waste load being deposited along trails, near campsites, and close to water sources. Do the 'thought experiment' yourself: If there are 1,500 thruhikers starting from Springer in February and March, and another 500 'sectioners' starting at Springer and going 50 miles up the line, all averaging 10 miles a day, those 50 miles of Georgia are going to have 10,000 pounds of human waste - 5 tons - in close proximity to the Trail, much of it clustered by shelters and the rest rarely more than 100 feet (yes, I know the 'rule' and yes, I know that few follow it consistently) from the pathway. Think of it another way: That's about the same amount of human solid waste as, say, Hot Springs, NC produces in 3 or 4 days.

If someone here started suggesting that it would be OK to bury 5 tons of litter, trash, tuna cans and more along the AT, and dig garbage dumps by every shelter, we'd all go nuts. Instead, we all (mostly) agree that if we "pack it in, pack it out". Human waste isn't any different.

By the way, it's very easy, sanitary, and safe to pack it out, done properly. Which takes less time than digging a cathole, too.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5401a2.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss4907a1.htm

The Weasel

[The Weasel]

I opened up a new thread with poll under health and hygene. This thread was getting kind of s**ty.

Excellent idea. I don't know if posts can be transferred there. I'll wait a bit, and if they aren't, I'll copy my last one over to that one.

TW

[MOWGLI]

By the way, it's very easy, sanitary, and safe to pack it out, done properly. Which takes less time than digging a cathole, too.


The Weasel

Russ, I suggest you work on your persuasion techniques. I understand what you'd like to see happen, but I think you're going about it the wrong way.

PS: I have no issues with using a WAG bag where required.

[The Weasel]

Mowgli, feel free to improve on my techniques. I don't mind at all, and am always grateful to others who do so.

TW

[Alligator]

I'm glad I looked that up I thought the CDC meant Center for Dickhead Counselors.

From the 1998-2002 Report.

Interpretation: The increase observed for 2002 might reflect increased reporting after reporting of giardiasis as a nationally notifiable disease began in 2002. Transmission of giardiasis occurs throughout the United States, with increased diagnosis or reporting occurring in northern states. However, state incidence figures should be compared with caution because individual state surveillance systems have varying capabilities to detect cases. The seasonal peak in age-specific case reports coincides with the summer recreational water season and might reflect increased use of communal swimming venues (e.g., lakes, rivers, swimming pools, and water parks) by young children.

Communal swimming venues, not animals eating dung.

Results

During the 1998--2002 reporting period, the total number of reported cases of giardiasis decreased 18.6% from 24,226 for 1998 to 19,708 for 2001 and then increased 8.1% to 21,300 for 2002 (Table 1). Cases reported to be outbreak related made up 1.6%--11.6% of the total number of cases reported annually for 1999--2002. Although the number of states reporting cases increased from 42 to 46 during the reporting period, the number of states reporting >15 cases per 100,000 population decreased from 10 in 1998 to five in 2002.

A decrease then an increase. Also a reduction in states with high numbers of cases per state. Inconclusive as to an explosion.

In the discussion.

Giardiasis is geographically widespread in the United States. These data and data from the previous national giardiasis surveillance summary (1992--1997) indicate that the diagnosis or transmission of giardiasis might be higher in northern states (24). However, because differences in giardiasis surveillance systems among states can affect the capability to detect cases, whether this finding is of true biologic significance or is only the result of differences in case detection or reporting is difficult to determine.

In other words, the CDC is still unsure whether what they are seeing is an actual increase or the result of better reporting.

Further, your original claim was

First, TP, even if buried 12-18" deep - which usually it isn't, even when the soil permits it, which usually it won't due to rocks and roots - catholes are dug up by varmints (skunks, 'coons, 'possums, mice and others) to eat the feces, which contains a very high amount of food value. That's what gets the paper up more of time than anything else. It's not preventable.

Second, TP doesn't biodegrade as fast as people think. Minimum is usually 2 years, even in very wet soil, and up to 10 years or more in normal soil. In dry environments it can last for decades.

Neither of these are opinion; they're well recognized facts, and it's more than unsightly: There's a lot of scientific research indicating that the explosion in giardia across North America is due to human waste in the cycle, because of #1 above, i.e. human waste creates runoff or is eaten by animals, who become infected, and then their waste contaminates water sources too, then back to humans and so on.

The CDC has not suggested that your #1 reason is the cause of any perceived increase.

Try again.

[The Weasel]

Alligator, see the new thread in Health/Hygiene. I agree with Joe that it's better to continue the discussion there.

TW

[Bob S]

Every animal on this planet has a fear of fire & smoke, what does a fire ring smell like? It smells like fire & smoke. I don’t think burning some paper is an issue like some are making it out to be.

I would like to take this statement back.

I would have never said or thought animals would want to be around a fire at all. But last night I was watching a PBS Nature program “Artic Bears” it showed a trash dump in Alaska that Polar bears were digging through. The people of the town set the trash on fire to keep the bears out. But the video footage showed the bears grabbing things right out of the fire and dragging the trash bags away a few feet and then digging through them. The bear were leery of the fire, but it didn’t stop them from going after food.

I always thought all animals had this terrible fear of fire? In fact I remember being told this years ago in school.

[ki0eh]

I always thought all animals had this terrible fear of fire? In fact I remember being told this years ago in school.

My father-in-law had a pony that would lick the salts from old electronics and stuff while his trash file was still smoldering.

[No Belay]

I must be the only person who's never, ever had a problem with mice. I must smell like a cat.

I'm not going to touch that one. Dixi has already deleted me to many times this week.