Bearpaw & Windjammer off trail

[bigcranky]

My hiking partner lost his visa debit card and had eight hundred bucks gone from his account. Merchants are supposed to ask for ID when you use the card, but, well, many don't. I prefer either a real ATM card (requires a PIN) or a real credit card. But that's just me.

[Jack Tarlin]

Read Post#6 above. Kinda hard for a manual credit machine to cause an electronic glitch.

Would also be curious s to whether or not the improper charge against their account was made the day they were there or the day they left, or a few days later. Or if it were made MANY days later. If so, it's kinda hard to believe this was an accident.

However, I think we should perhaps withold any judgment on this til we hear more from the folks telling the story, assuming they wish to share the details.

The possibility exists that this was a horrible accident.

The possibility further exists that this was NOT an accident, but this doesn'tnecessarily mean that the folks running the business were responsible or knew about it. Businesses have bad employees sometimes, and sometimes stuff happens that owners or managers have no way of knowing about.

In any case, I hope we hear more bout this, and how the problem iis resolved. Til then, we might want to be a bit circumspect with acccusations or denuciations that may prove unfair or even groundless.

[Lone Wolf]

Read Post#6 above. Kinda hard for a manual credit machine to cause an electronic glitch.

Would also be curious s to whether or not the improper charge against their account was made the day they were there or the day they left, or a few days later. Or if it were made MANY days later. If so, it's kinda hard to believe this was an accident.

However, I think we should perhaps withold any judgment on this til we hear more from the folks telling the story, assuming they wish to share the details.

The possibility exists that this was a horrible accident.

The possibility further exists that this was NOT an accident, but this doesn'tnecessarily mean that the folks running the business were responsible or knew about it. Businesses have bad employees sometimes, and sometimes stuff happens that owners or managers have no way of knowing about.

In any case, I hope we hear more bout this, and how the problem iis resolved. Til then, we might want to be a bit circumspect with acccusations or denuciations that may prove unfair or even groundless.

ah, bullshat. they got ripped off

[Jack Tarlin]

Probably. But we don't know that yet.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Hmmm... has this happened at this particular business before? Something that was said earlier kind of gave me the idea it has.

[Bearpaw88]

Read Post#6 above. Kinda hard for a manual credit machine to cause an electronic glitch.

Would also be curious s to whether or not the improper charge against their account was made the day they were there or the day they left, or a few days later. Or if it were made MANY days later. If so, it's kinda hard to believe this was an accident.

However, I think we should perhaps withold any judgment on this til we hear more from the folks telling the story, assuming they wish to share the details.

The possibility exists that this was a horrible accident.

The possibility further exists that this was NOT an accident, but this doesn'tnecessarily mean that the folks running the business were responsible or knew about it. Businesses have bad employees sometimes, and sometimes stuff happens that owners or managers have no way of knowing about.

In any case, I hope we hear more bout this, and how the problem iis resolved. Til then, we might want to be a bit circumspect with acccusations or denuciations that may prove unfair or even groundless.

As to the details- the money was removed 2 months after we were there. It seems difficult for it to have been a mistake, but officially it was a clerical error. An error that will hopefully never happen to anyone else.

The situation is being resolved by the return of our money in the next month or so. Because this is a business law states that if they return the money no legal recourse can be had unless it can be proven not to have been an error. However, if this happens often at the same place they may lose there Visa/Mastercard privileges.

I have gotten several PM's regarding the name of the business so to remove further suspense yes it was Uncle Johnny's.

[NICKTHEGREEK]

Maybe 25 years ago I got a call from Amex asking if I had just ordered $12,000.00 worth of flowers from a florist in Philly. NO, was my emphatic answer. The last I had used my card was at a restaurant in nearby Doylestown who apparently had an employee who ran a few extras through the machine or kept carbons for later distribution. No charges, no liability, happy and relieved Nick.
I've had my green amex since 72 and don't ever leave home without it.

[10-K]

In any case, I hope we hear more bout this, and how the problem iis resolved. Til then, we might want to be a bit circumspect with acccusations or denuciations that may prove unfair or even groundless.

Sounds like a sane approach.

[Alligator]

There's a bit of information missing here before anyone rushes to judgement. We are only hearing half of one side of the problem.

What charges did the customer incur at the establishment? For how much exactly?

When did the charges occur?

Was the customer billed once or twice?

The erroneous charge, how much was it exactly?

When was the erroneous charge billed?

When you say manual machine, are we talking the kind where they imprint your card? These used to be called in, sometimes to an operator and sometimes to a machine. The glitch could have happened there.

Does the proprietor have any receipt reflecting the erroneous charge. Maybe a decimal point was off or someone keyed in an extra digit. Instead of $99.75, someone keyed $997.50.

I totally understand being pissed off, I had a charge placed on my own debit account that was not mine and it took a long time to fix too. And maybe it is readily evident that the proprietor tried to rip you off, but perhaps there was a glitch.


**OK, my post is a little late in, I see you are answering some of the above.

[Skidsteer]

I have gotten several PM's regarding the name of the business so to remove further suspense yes it was Uncle Johnny's.

Take it easy everybody.

Wait for the entire story to unfold before passing judgement.

[Bearpaw88]

There's a bit of information missing here before anyone rushes to judgement. We are only hearing half of one side of the problem.

What charges did the customer incur at the establishment? For how much exactly?

When did the charges occur?

Was the customer billed once or twice?

The erroneous charge, how much was it exactly?

When was the erroneous charge billed?

When you say manual machine, are we talking the kind where they imprint your card? These used to be called in, sometimes to an operator and sometimes to a machine. The glitch could have happened there.

Does the proprietor have any receipt reflecting the erroneous charge. Maybe a decimal point was off or someone keyed in an extra digit. Instead of $99.75, someone keyed $997.50.

I totally understand being pissed off, I had a charge placed on my own debit account that was not mine and it took a long time to fix too. And maybe it is readily evident that the proprietor tried to rip you off, but perhaps there was a glitch.

Wow, listen the fraud department has already been in contact with the them and they have ADMITTED it was a mistake. Purposeful or no I'll never know. How much we spent 2 months ago Does Not Matter. What does matter is that glitch or no glitch we are home. Of coarse I am pissed off. I don't care about the fine details of a manual machine.

[Jack Tarlin]

Charges appearing two months AFTER these folks visited this establishment would, unfortunately, indicate that this was not an accident, Alligator.

If a Hanover restaurant tried to charge me for an expensive meal two months after I dined there, and did so when I hadn't been within hundreds of miles of Hanover for all that time.....well, sorry, but I'd have to wonder.

And Alligator, so would you.

[MOWGLI]

Take it easy everybody.

Wait for the entire story to unfold before passing judgement.

Wow, listen the fraud department has already been in contact with the them and they have ADMITTED it was a mistake. Purposeful or no I'll never know. How much we spent 2 months ago Does Not Matter. What does matter is that glitch or no glitch we are home. Of coarse I am pissed off. I don't care about the fine details of a manual machine.

Sounds like this thread should be locked down. It's only going to get ugly from here.

[Jack Tarlin]

Um, Mowgli, it got ugly when these kids had their trip ended.

They have every right to discuss it, so do other people, and neither Mowgli or anyone else has the right to muzzle the discussion.

[yappy]

Yuck is all i have to say. Sorry for what happened to you. I would be bent too. I never felt that comfortable at that place.... kinda like rainbow springs. I felt pushed to spend money there.

[Patchfoot]

I've worked with plenty of businesses that used a variety of credit card methods (including installing and setting them up) and it seems pretty unlikely, though not impossible, for it to be clerical error. Almost always this sort of problem is the result of a sketchy employee (this used to happen fairly often at chain restaurants in my hometown).

It does seem a bit crap that they got their lives thrown about because of this and the business gets to drag its feet returning the money. If I'm late on a bill its not like I say "clerical error" got it stuck under the couch so I'm not gonna pay the late fee. I wish you guys would at least get some extra money for every day you wait to get your money back, but unfortunately these things don't work both ways.

[Alligator]

I would wonder Jack, but it's nice to have all the facts before passing judgement. Sure it sounds totally suspicious but when what you say is affecting someone's livelihood as this might it would be good to have the complete story.

I'm sorry your hike ended Bearpaw88 truly. But there does exist the possibility that it was a mistake. You don't have to answer any questions, but they are legitimate questions that could help to understand whether this was intentional or not.

[Alligator]

Charges appearing two months AFTER these folks visited this establishment would, unfortunately, indicate that this was not an accident, Alligator.

If a Hanover restaurant tried to charge me for an expensive meal two months after I dined there, and did so when I hadn't been within hundreds of miles of Hanover for all that time.....well, sorry, but I'd have to wonder.

And Alligator, so would you.

Jack, I do my bills electronically, I have for probably ten years. My receipts and when the charges hit my account rarely match in time span. Sometimes going fairly long. Yearly, I have 2-4 charges that I know I have made that never get on my account. I just wipe them. So, yeah to me it is possible for a charge to have been delayed and perhaps entered erroneously. Extremely unlikely given that it would need to be a double error. I think businesses have up to 90 days to charge your account but I don't know for sure. It probably varies some by state.

[Jack Tarlin]

Alligator:

I agree with you about being fair. (Please have a look at my post #22, above, in which I urged exactly that sentiment).

It might be useful if someone forwarded this thread to the business in question or notified them about it, in case they wish to respond to it, or perhaps present information that hasn't been discussed.

And while your comment about how businesses run their charges is instructive, I must say, in 13 years on the Trail, I can't recall one trailside business that posted its bills two months after rendering a service or making a sale. If there's a hiker business out there that bills people 60 or 90 days after their visit, well, I've never heard of it.

[Bearpaw88]

The banks telling us not to talk to him directly... who knows why. Anyway I have now posted all the details I am aware of about this situation. I am just trying to deal with being home early. It is hard, but I got to vent on my trail journal and talk about my favorite experiences. I'll post some of it for non trail journal readers.

"...One thing that surprises me about my section hike is that some of the most miserable days are my favorite trail days. This may say more about my character than the trail. For instance, on March 4th we had our first bad weather experience. It rained pretty much all day. The wind picked up and the temperature dropped as the day went on. At one point I found my self totally alone on a ridge, lightning was pounding near me, the trees shook and swayed with fury, and the trail was a waterfall. I was alone and scared. Sheer misery kept me hiking forward and I hoped when I got to the shelter I could dry off and get warm. When we did get to the shelter, Woods Hole Shelter, The wind was whipping about 40 mph and even the shelter didn't keep the cold out and we tented anyway. After 12 miles on day 4 I was shivering and emotionally numb the rest of the night.
This sounds pretty miserable, the ongoing joke for the rest of the trail was at least it is not March 4th, but I almost guiltily admit it was one of my favorite days. Some of the hardest days for me to get through were the "easy" days. Who wouldn't want to hike 14 miles on a sunny 70 degree day on easy terrain? On these days I found myself struggling to stay focused and to move forward. On these days I wanted an ipod or a steak dinner. On these days I felt unchallenged and unmotivated. In truth these days were the most challenging but mentally not physically. I got through it by being silly, joking with others, and really trying to pay attention to the beauty around me.
Another thing about the trail I enjoyed was tenting. We usually made a point to find nice campsites and stay away from shelters. My most memorable nights on the trail are these nights when we stayed at little know campsites on or off the trail. Sometimes we were told about certain spots by veteran hikers. Other times we scouted for them on our own. The thing I hated about shelter the most were all the people bitching about how they hated shelters while they stayed at the shelters. It's just annoying, nothing personal.
Anyway before this entry becomes to long to hold the ADD reader I will end it."