Horses in SMNP

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea......Horses. I think it would be interesting to hear some of your positions on Horses up The AT in the Smokies. I think there are concerns related to the usage and damage factors and the relationship of hikers and riders.

I certainly believe, personally, that multi-use of our National Parks is fair use, to a point. When damage and abnormal wear and tear result from the wrong vehicle (4 wheelers, snow mobiles, horses) being in areas of conservation, or where natural appearance is high concern, and usage less of a concern, then multi-use options become less applicable. The rules in SMNP apparantly allow horses to traverse The AT up on the Ridge Line. Would't it be in the interest of the Park itself, and the Hiking Public, to restrict Horse movement on The AT? Your opinions, please, fellow Users.

[Jaybird]

K.Z.:


Horse trails run thru-out the Smokies...& yes, the trails do run across the A.T. from time to time.....i, however...dont like to see the horse hoofs prints embedded in the softened (now hardened) earth as i hike/backpack.

horses are used near the Russell Field shelter, for sure. & mire up the trail with their excrement, etc., etc

I'm also under the understanding that some of the Park Rangers use horses in their duties in the area.


see ya'll UP the trail!

[chris]

On the AT in the Smokys I believe horses are allowed between Shuckstack and Spence Field, between Buckeye Gap and Silar Bald, and from Pecks to Davenport Gap. I haven't seen a horse yet between Pecks and Davenport and don't recall any damage to the trail there. The Buckeye-Silar stretch is mostly to allow riders to connect between the north and south parts of the park and is really short (like 2 miles or something). The most horse damage is on the Shuckstack-Spence stretch, but even this isn't too bad. Some ruts and churned up trail. The proximity to Cades Cove draws horse riders to this particular stretch (and bears). Horse damage on the AT in the Smokys is really pretty minimal and I don't think there is any reason to worry about it. Off the AT, there are some truly gruesome horse trails, but these are mostly on fairly unscenic, unvisited (except by horses and a very few number of hikers) trails.

[Bankrobber]

I heard that the reason horses are allowed in the Smokies is that the AT was originally a trail used by horses. In exchange for allowing the trail to become the AT, there was a guarantee that the horses were assured access. They definitely cause erosion throughout the Smokies. I would love an oppurtunity to take a horse trip through the area.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea......Chris, when I was up there one trip, A bunch of riders came into Spence Field shelter area and approached the shelter (this was after dark) and said they had reserved the shelter and everyone had to get out, in no uncertain terms. Well, needless to say a ballyhoo broke out. Eventually they tied out and set up tents(big canvass ones). But, what they did next, was really unnerving. They began to walk their horses down to the spring to get water with no ethic for the spring. The horses were making droppings all the way down to and around the spring. Next morning, I didn't even go there for water, just headed up The Trail. The problem in those sections of SMNP where the horses are is just that. The Riders have no trail etiquette and the conflict of interest was obvious. I've also, had some experiences on the North end of the Park where The Trail is narrow coming down into Davenport Gap, where the horses were coming up The Trail, and pinned us up against the wall on the right (nowhere to go on the left!). Hey, I like horses too, but, these guy were close and rather scarry, being as we didn't know them, and we looked scarry to them with backpacks on and everything.....I thought they would bolt, all snorting and neeying as they passed. Tense situation, again, the riders were unconcerned for the hikers safety, apparently. The most concern though, that I have is the springs and wear on The Trail. That section around the South End is really tough to traverse when it rains. When does it not? I realize the Horses were there before the hikers, but it's the 21st Century and rules are made, for the here and now, only to be changed later, when conditions and times change. Just an observation. Maybe the horses could be routed accross The Trail and onto another Horse Trail without traversing N to S. I'm sure the issue has come to the Forum before and also been an issue in the SMNP. The NPS is so jacked on this 'multi-use' system that they employ to keep all the separate 'groups' from bickering about usage, that, at times the rules (usage) need some kind of flexablity to allow for neccessary problems. I wish the ATC would somehow work with the NPS and SMNP to remedy these conditions and problems. Maybe I'll write um a letter.......KZ@

[Blue Jay]

Yea.....rules, you really do like them. The laws on access to the Smokies have worked well for many years. They need to be left as they are. I'm sure the equestrians have many hiker horror stories to relate. I have hiked the Smokies 3 times and not only have not had a problem but have enjoyed all of the equestrians I have met.

[Saluki Dave]

My one encounter with horses (well a horse and a mule) was about a mile north of Pecks Corner at around 8:30 AM. A fellow on a horse pulling a mule was delievring equipment to a biological test site somewhere over by Tri-Corner Knob. He had already come up the Hughes Ridge trail, been over to Tricorner and was on his way back by 8:30 or so. It had rained the night before and there were hoof prints and steamy piles plainly in evidence, enough so that I was cautious where I stepped for the next 5 miles or so.

I don't have a problem with the multiple use philosophy, but its impacts should at least be reviwed from time to time. An argument could be made that X-many hikers equal 1 horse, and on that basis access to trails limited for hikers as well. While I'm not advocating that, at least consider the possibility when you talk about curtailing the rights of others.

[azchipka]

Yea......Chris, when I was up there one trip, A bunch of riders came into Spence Field shelter area and approached the shelter (this was after dark) and said they had reserved the shelter and everyone had to get out, in no uncertain terms. W........... I wish the ATC would somehow work with the NPS and SMNP to remedy these conditions and problems. Maybe I'll write um a letter.......KZ@

Just a few quick notes about horses on the trail.

Basicly its true the trails in the GSMNP was used as a horse trail long before it was the AT and the agreement with the USFS, NPS and ATC for being able to turn this into a park and having the AT run through it was horses would always have unlimited access to the park, this is part of the same arangement that allows free entrance into the park instead of having a cost like most national parks. So there is really nothing that can be done my the NPS, USFS, or SMNP to limit or reduce the number of horses on the trail unless the agreement to turn the land into a park and have the AT run through it was discarded completely and then who knows what would happen to the area.

In regards to them telling everyone to egt out of the shelter. If they have made reservations they do in fact have a right to do this. All shelters in GSMNP require a reservation with the exception of thru-hikers holding a permit, the only thing is only 3 spots in the shelter are held for thru-hikers. So they could very well have had the other 8 spots in the shelter reserved. If you want to avoid this problem during your travels in GSMNP stick to a time line for your time in the park and make reservations at the shelters you plan on using. The 3 spots in the shelter for thru-hikers only applies to shelters that are along the AT. The 8 other spots in the shelters in the park are for use by reservation only, granted alot of through hikers ignore this. Those ignoring it can find them selves with a hefty little fine as well if someone who had reservations wants to being nasty about it.

[9 Mules]

I worked for SMNP doing trail maintenance and my crew hated having to repair the damage done by horses. It ate up alot of our time if we wanted to do things right. We only maintained 150+ miles x 3 passes per season =s 450 miles and thats plenty for a 8 man crew. None of this was on the AT.
The AT is maintained by volunteers, not SMNP service crews, thats another reason the AT is funky....the lack of man power & the time on site.

SMNP should cache trail maintenance tools at Fontana for NOBO to use LOL. We'd improve our image, gain political power and maybe a little love from NPS? A ridge runner/leader, a thru-hiker crew of 2-4 and 1 day of work could kick butt. I'd even sharpen your Polaski for ya! haha.

**Partial use of the AT is all they get, plus the usage fee for camping.
**The AT through SMNP has been around long before horses, its our job to keep it healthy. Have you done your share?
**Horses have blind spots front and rear. To the horse you appear as a dark figure.
**Horses have the right of way. Hikers should stop, get off the trail the best they can, be still and let the horses through.
**Narrow trail, spooked horse, novice rider, hiker gets stomped, end of thru-hike.
**If you wave your hand as a greeting towards the rider (or the horse!)....do so it at a distance...

[Chip]

I live in Asheville, NC and go backpacking in the Smokies a few times each year. I believe too many trails are open to horseback travel. If you look at the GSMNP map you will see what I mean. After years of horse travel a trail
becomes a deep ditch! The Polls Gap trail in the Cataloochee section of the
Smokies is one of the worst trails I have ever hiked. In some places the trail had been relocated next to the old path. The reason was that the trail was
a 4 to 6 foot deep rocky ditch where rain water had also helped in the erosion process along with the horse shoes that had cut into the soil. I now believe this trail is closed, too rough to maintain by volunteers. Each year there seems to be more & more horseback riders in the Smokies. I just think there should be a fair balance between foot trails only and horseback trails.
Maybe I am wrong but that is my 2 cents worth. As for the AT I don't see
much horse travel and hope it stays that way !

[Doctari]

I once met a horseman on a local (Ohio) trail, his serious comment was "look at the damage the deer are doing to the trail!" he was sitting on a 17 hand horse (1 hand = 4" measured at the horses shoulders) with steel shoes at the time. He failed to notice the deer trail we were standing next to as this heavily travled deer trail was barely trampled undergrowth/duff. The biggest deer I have seen in this area, was a max 8 hands, & didn't have a 250+ lb man sitting on it.
Who was doing the trail damage? This trail was "multi use", a neigboring trail for Hikers ONLY has minimal erosion, this horse trail was 4' deep in places, it gets almost no foot traffic because of the horses, bet you it aint the deer doing the damage.

I love horses, raised & rode them for years. Still feel that they have no place on a foot path, or on fragle terrain!

Doctari

[MedicineMan]

but only one encounter, maybe 11 riders near the shelter (Spence) and then 2 riders 3 miles southbound...no problems, the first group avoided us and the second said howdy...no apparent trail damage, but yes at the shelter they headed for the spring. Personally I think the Smokes is large enough park for separation of church and state, but the original agreement stands and probably will for my lifetime at least...the positive is that if you were hurt they could more readily extract you (depending on what was hurt of course).....many many years ago I encountered some riders on the way to Big Bald NoBo from Sams Gap, one offered me a dope,,,,hmmm I thought and politely said no. They dissapeard and we cont. on to Big Bald Summit, again the riders appeared and seeing me soaked with sweat again offered a dope, this time reaching into a saddle bag and producing an ice cold Pepsi, then I rememberd my dad calling them soda-dopes years earlier-- I then said YES and thank you very much!
I can tolerate the occasional rider much more than I can 4wheelers or motorcycles...I've got a Honda enduro but i would never consider getting on the AT with it....probably the way we were raised.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea......Thanks for your input Mules. That's some 1st hand info, that's really helpful. I agree with you in what you added. There aren't enough maintainers up the AT in the Smokeys and weather or not horses should be allowed on the AT is an issue. I was just reading about Govt' cutbacks in NP's and there's only 1 full time ranger in Cades Cove to serve all the tourist at peak summer season, so you can believe that maintainers on the AT are few and far between. As for the danger between horses and hikers, like you said, it's real, rather a few of these posters think so or not. With all the other areas and Trails in the GSMNP, it's difficult to understand why they allow horses up the AT. But, you know the NP's philosophy, 'Multi-use' or no use. That includes, ATV's, Jeeps, Horses, Ox-Carts, Snow-mobiles, Water-ski's, cell-phones, PRC-25's, TV's, Plastic-hotels, Plastic kids toys, Land Rovers, and just about anything else that 'serves' the public. Hike-On.....KZ@

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea......Chip. I hear you. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Too many horses, and too much damage. The fact that 9 Mules said in a previous, that the maintainence is done by volunteers and not Park employees, further exacerbates the problem. I've already drafted an email to the NPS about these kinds of problems. Hopefully, they'll be dully addressed. Thanks for your positive input...KZ@

[eyahiker]

I own seven horses, so I have a stake on both sides.

Equestrians, like any other group, have good folks and bad folks that participate. Some will meticulously clean up after their mounts at campsites, others get drunk, trash places, and move on without giving a poop. ( No pun intended)

My experience has not been on the AT, but I will share the frustration of a horse owner who wants to use trails in other states, that are not part of trail system that is used 'primarily' for foot traffic like the AT, just for info's sake.

Many states have shut trails down to horses but opened them to bikes, snowmobiles, and ATV's. PA is one of the worst states for this, on a DER road (well maintained, about 2 feet deep in cinder/gravel) it is illegal to ride a horse, and one can aquire a $150.00 fine if caught, but all of the other means of travel listed above is OK.

On a day trip with a horse it's usually not the kind of trip that damages trails
1) usually you don't start out on a rainy day and ride on muddy trails, you wait for nice weather.
2) you are in and out, and are often trailering horses to a location with a drivable/trailerable parking area.
3) you don't need the kind of overnight equipment or spare horse/mule for hauling that you would on a longer hike

However, those out for the long haul have no choice on which days they ride, and hooves can muddy up a hiking path beyond recognition, as well as damage flora/fauna on the sides - this is just laziness on the part of the rider(s), if you can't keep your horse in single file, you probably shouldn't be on him in the first place!

That said....

I love horses, raised & rode them for years. Still feel that they have no place on a foot path, or on fragle terrain!
Doctari

Agree with you Doctari! Also, many horses don't do high altitudes on the East Coast, out west, another story where even more harm can be done. Long Dist. or Endurance rides/races are usually not done in fragile areas, nor on footpaths, but there may be the exception..........

So, both sides in my opinion, but I personally do want to hike the AT next year and DON'T want to walk through a bunch of horse apples/trashed trails.....

[Blue Jay]

Yea......With all the other areas and Trails in the GSMNP, it's difficult to understand why they allow horses up the AT. But, you know the NP's philosophy, 'Multi-use' or no use. That includes, ATV's, Jeeps, Horses, Ox-Carts, Snow-mobiles, Water-ski's, cell-phones, PRC-25's, TV's, Plastic-hotels, Plastic kids toys, Land Rovers, and just about anything else that 'serves' the public. Hike-On.....KZ@

It's not difficult to understand. Horses were there before the AT, you don't like it please go somewhere else. To equate a beautiful living creature with all this other American cultural junk is flat out ignorant. Thrus have already walked in miles of mud and snow. A little horse s**t for the few miles they are allowed on, won't kill you. Clearly you've never hiked in Maine. Some days you feet never leave Moose s**t. No one is crying about that.

[tlbj6142]

To equate a beautiful living creature with all this other American cultural junk is flat out ignorant.

Well horses are a non-native species. Just like ATVs. Llamas are the only true native pack animal of the Americas. Though they left the North American continent 15,000 (?) years ago. Their feet (pads) don't do near the damage that horses hooves do. But, then, they are a bit slower and not near as strong as a horse.

Now that I'm on the subject, what is the horse's natural range? Mid-East? North Africa? Just curious.

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea......You always have something so positive to add to the thread, don't you, Blue Jay....what a nice person you must be. Really Looking forward to meeting you someday.KZ@

[Blue Jay]

Well horses are a non-native species. Just like ATVs. Llamas are the only true native pack animal of the Americas. Though they left the North American continent 15,000 (?) years ago. Their feet (pads) don't do near the damage that horses hooves do. But, then, they are a bit slower and not near as strong as a horse.

Now that I'm on the subject, what is the horse's natural range? Mid-East? North Africa? Just curious.

I didn't say horses are a native species. People have been riding them there since before the AT. As for Yea.....Koz. Your constant anti-horse position is negative to a legal, long term, natural, human activity, then you claim I'm negative. I'll be nice and not bring up the hypocrisy issue. Yea.....Koz, you just might be the only member of White Blaze I would not want to meet as I would be inaned to death. You do take great pictures however, words are just not your forte.

[Bill Harris]

Last year my partner and I were doing the section from Hot Springs to Bland.Just shortly after leaving Old Orchard Shelter,we encountered a man and his wife leading mules onto the AT.Evidently they had came down the trail from Va.603.My partner and I tried to pass,but the man stopped and turned his mule so he could see us.The mule started getting restless,like it wanted to come at us.My partner told the man that we wanted to pass.The man looked at us and said,my mule don't like hikers.I was just about to say something to him,when his wife told her husband,let them pass.
Sometimes I feel that people like that have their own agenda and,use the animals to their advantage.Surely when the man made the statement about his mule not liking hikers,that came from the owner and his own stupidity.