What's the weight of your BIG FOUR?

[Femadog]

ULA Ohm with extras removed - 30 Oz.
Dutchware Chameleon Hammock, bug net and Whoopie Suspension - 22 oz
CF Tarp with Doors, Stakes Lines - 12 oz.
20 Degree Top Quilt - 20 oz.
20 Degree Under quilt - 19 Oz.

103 Oz - 6.5 Pounds.

I have a set of summer quilts coming that will drop 20 oz. from that to just over 5 pounds. I don't feel like I give up anything in comfort or safety with this. Total base weight before food and water is 13 pounds.

[backtrack213]

palante simple pack- 13oz
zpacks hexamid solo plus- 15.4oz
MLD FKT quilt- 17oz
Neoair Xlite small- 8oz

Total- 53.4oz or 3 1/3 lbs

[bamadog]

Ula circuit 40 oz
six moon designs lunar solo le 30 oz
enlightened eq. 0 degree enigma 25 oz
thermarest prolight plus pad 22 oz
7 lb.5 oz.

[Wolf - 23000]

If you're giving up comfort or safety to go ultralight...you're doing it wrong. Ultralight hikers replace gear with skill, knowledge, and experience. True ultralight means taking the lightest gear possible...it doesn't mean leaving your safety nets at home. Hike light, sleep warm, stay dry, eat well

True, but then why are so many "ultra-light backpackers" carry twice the gear weight as others "ultra-light backpackers"? The term "ultra" means the peak of the peak. Well if someone is carrying 8 or 10 pounds, well how can they still consider them selves as being ultra light while others are carrying less than 5 pounds?

You could also ask the question if someone health body weight is 100 pounds carrying 20 pounds on their back with food, water and gear. They are hiking around with 20% of their body weight. Compare that to someone who weighting 200 pounds with 40 pounds on their back. Can one really claim to be more of an ultra-light backpacker than the other?

Wolf

[Deacon]

True, but then why are so many "ultra-light backpackers" carry twice the gear weight as others "ultra-light backpackers"? The term "ultra" means the peak of the peak. Well if someone is carrying 8 or 10 pounds, well how can they still consider them selves as being ultra light while others are carrying less than 5 pounds?

You could also ask the question if someone health body weight is 100 pounds carrying 20 pounds on their back with food, water and gear. They are hiking around with 20% of their body weight. Compare that to someone who weighting 200 pounds with 40 pounds on their back. Can one really claim to be more of an ultra-light backpacker than the other?

Wolf

Interesting. Backpacker magazine cited a study (this is from memory and I can't give the source) that determined the "carry ability" of any one hiker. The conclusion was that 15% of body weight is the point when the hiker begins to hunch forward. Below that, the hiker is able to stand upright as though they were not carrying a load.

Therefore, a 200 lb. hiker can carry up to 30 lbs. without altering the normal gait. The ultralight factor comes into play below that weight.

[hipbone]

Interesting. Backpacker magazine cited a study (this is from memory and I can't give the source) that determined the "carry ability" of any one hiker. The conclusion was that 15% of body weight is the point when the hiker begins to hunch forward. Below that, the hiker is able to stand upright as though they were not carrying a load.

Therefore, a 200 lb. hiker can carry up to 30 lbs. without altering the normal gait. The ultralight factor comes into play below that weight.

I think putting a number on base weight and not defining the situation is why so many people misunderstand the ultralight concept. a 10 lb base weight is a general consensus among people who have experience in the woods long distance hiking. In general, about 10 lbs will be plenty of gear to get an experienced hiker through a 3 season thru-hike (AT, PCT, JMT, CT, etc) if they are an experienced hiker and have thought very carefully through their gear. If a 220 lb man tries to take a 10 lb base weight on a cold weather hike that tells me that he has no idea of what he needs in the woods (or he is much more experienced than most and has been in that situation before).

Ultralight gear is not about going light for the sake of getting your "ultralight" title, it is about taking the least amount of weight you can without giving up comfort or safety. If safety and comfort are not part of your equation, you're doing it wrong. In my opinion there are 3 physical challenges to hiking a long distance trail....distance, elevation, and pack weight...Distance and elevation is not in my control, but pack weight is. My reason for ultralight hiking is that I want to give my body every chance to succeed in finishing a long distance trail. I am not a person who has the luxury of failing to finish a 2000 mile trail and having an opportunity to give it a try the next year. Anybody who has hiked with a 45 lb pack and then changed to a 15 lb pack can no doubt tell a major difference in the effort it takes to hike long distance. If that 15 lb gear does the same thing as 45 lbs of gear then why not take it?

I think that the internet has definitely helped confuse the ultralight hiking concept. People go to Youtube and see these gear lists full of ultralight gear and they buy it with no experience in the woods and no experience with ultralight gear. I am amazed at people who will buy a zpacks arc blast and then pack it with 35 lbs of gear and complain about how it carries. I've seen arc blasts going down the trail with 10 lbs of gear hanging off the outside of the pack. If you want to see a really good evolution of someone going lighter and lighter in the woods while gaining valuable real life hiking knowledge, go watch Chris Berry's videos and take note of his gear selections during his Florida Trail hike, then his AT hike, and finally his Arizona Trail thru hike. You can see his gear transformation and it was really enlightening to me.

experience teaches you what you need in the woods (or more specifically, what you don't need). ultralight does not involve borrowing a Bic lighter because you didn't want to carry your own, it doesn't involve doing jumping jacks before you go to bed to keep warm, it does not involve not carrying rain gear or warm clothing to cut weight. ultralight is about letting go of gadgets and connecting with the woods. It is about living simply and walking lightly. I sit on a stump instead of a camp chair not because I cannot carry a stool, but to feel like I am living simply, using what nature provides. Hiking is about being in the woods, not living in the woods with all the amenities of sitting in your living room (unless that is what you like, then by all means hyoh).

Ultralight hiking is also not just reserved for long distance hikers. ultralight hiking (to me) is about living comfortably in the woods with minimal gear so that I can regain a sense of simplicity. It takes me away from the high tech gadgets and the stress of the modern world. I need items to eat, sleep, drink, and walk, and that is all I try to take.

Ultralight hiking techniques should be used by people who are comfortable in the woods and understands the concept of ultralight hiking. It takes skill and practice to choose light gear and use it correctly. People who have no skill or no practice and go into the woods with minimal gear put themselves at risk and give ultralight hiking a bad reputation.

ultralight...do it right, use caution, gain back yard experience before moving your skills into the woods, read, take classes, post on whiteblaze....do everything you can to keep yourself safe and understand ultralight concepts before you use them and they will work for almost everyone.
Hipbone (10 lb base weight since 2002)

[Recalc]

Hipbone makes a great point, it takes skill and practice to choose light gear and use it correctly. This skill doesn’t come overnight for some of us.

My shakedown hikes consisted of slowly replacing old gear with new, getting the pack weight down. The following year the AT was hiked with UL gear that would have thrilled a lot of UL hikers, but lack of skill and experience got in the way. When I got off the trail in NH, the pack list was reevaluated. While the weight of some items (e.g. big four) increased, total pack weight remained the same with changes in other areas (e.g. no camp shoes). Turns out the final 300 miles were the most rewarding miles of my journey. Bottom line, you have to be able to be comfortable and live in the gear choices made.

The pack list continues to be tweaked, but I am convinced he words light, safe, and comfortable can stay in the same sentence.

[cmoulder]

Amen and amen.... Very well stated. Those who incessantly harp about safety and comfort simply have not developed the necessary skills nor tweaked their UL kit adequately. The evolution requires a lot of thought and many short trips in various kinds of weather to field test gear and usage strategies.... for instance, intentionally going out for a quick overnighter in the crappiest wet-n-cold weather to test rain gear, shelter pitching practicalities, and sleep gear performance. It is not easy to become a confident ULer because problems are solved with experience and technique, not more and heavier stuff. For sure, it isn't for everybody.

I think putting a number on base weight and not defining the situation is why so many people misunderstand the ultralight concept. a 10 lb base weight is a general consensus among people who have experience in the woods long distance hiking. In general, about 10 lbs will be plenty of gear to get an experienced hiker through a 3 season thru-hike (AT, PCT, JMT, CT, etc) if they are an experienced hiker and have thought very carefully through their gear. If a 220 lb man tries to take a 10 lb base weight on a cold weather hike that tells me that he has no idea of what he needs in the woods (or he is much more experienced than most and has been in that situation before).

Ultralight gear is not about going light for the sake of getting your "ultralight" title, it is about taking the least amount of weight you can without giving up comfort or safety. If safety and comfort are not part of your equation, you're doing it wrong. In my opinion there are 3 physical challenges to hiking a long distance trail....distance, elevation, and pack weight...Distance and elevation is not in my control, but pack weight is. My reason for ultralight hiking is that I want to give my body every chance to succeed in finishing a long distance trail. I am not a person who has the luxury of failing to finish a 2000 mile trail and having an opportunity to give it a try the next year. Anybody who has hiked with a 45 lb pack and then changed to a 15 lb pack can no doubt tell a major difference in the effort it takes to hike long distance. If that 15 lb gear does the same thing as 45 lbs of gear then why not take it?

I think that the internet has definitely helped confuse the ultralight hiking concept. People go to Youtube and see these gear lists full of ultralight gear and they buy it with no experience in the woods and no experience with ultralight gear. I am amazed at people who will buy a zpacks arc blast and then pack it with 35 lbs of gear and complain about how it carries. I've seen arc blasts going down the trail with 10 lbs of gear hanging off the outside of the pack. If you want to see a really good evolution of someone going lighter and lighter in the woods while gaining valuable real life hiking knowledge, go watch Chris Berry's videos and take note of his gear selections during his Florida Trail hike, then his AT hike, and finally his Arizona Trail thru hike. You can see his gear transformation and it was really enlightening to me.

experience teaches you what you need in the woods (or more specifically, what you don't need). ultralight does not involve borrowing a Bic lighter because you didn't want to carry your own, it doesn't involve doing jumping jacks before you go to bed to keep warm, it does not involve not carrying rain gear or warm clothing to cut weight. ultralight is about letting go of gadgets and connecting with the woods. It is about living simply and walking lightly. I sit on a stump instead of a camp chair not because I cannot carry a stool, but to feel like I am living simply, using what nature provides. Hiking is about being in the woods, not living in the woods with all the amenities of sitting in your living room (unless that is what you like, then by all means hyoh).

Ultralight hiking is also not just reserved for long distance hikers. ultralight hiking (to me) is about living comfortably in the woods with minimal gear so that I can regain a sense of simplicity. It takes me away from the high tech gadgets and the stress of the modern world. I need items to eat, sleep, drink, and walk, and that is all I try to take.

Ultralight hiking techniques should be used by people who are comfortable in the woods and understands the concept of ultralight hiking. It takes skill and practice to choose light gear and use it correctly. People who have no skill or no practice and go into the woods with minimal gear put themselves at risk and give ultralight hiking a bad reputation.

ultralight...do it right, use caution, gain back yard experience before moving your skills into the woods, read, take classes, post on whiteblaze....do everything you can to keep yourself safe and understand ultralight concepts before you use them and they will work for almost everyone.
Hipbone (10 lb base weight since 2002)

[Wolf - 23000]

Hipbone, the true is the 10 lb. base weight was only set up to help sell books, videos or backpacking gear that hikers don’t really need to carry. Hikers were carrying less than 10 pounds years before the Internet became popular. A good example would be Grandma Gatewood. In 1989, the carrying less than 5 pounds base weight was achieved and repeal done throughout the 1990s on multiple long distance trails including the AT and PCT. So why is ultra-light backpacking defined as carrying more weight than what hikers were already doing back 25+ years ago? Shouldn't UL be carrying less than what was done in years pass?

As you pointed out, there are YouTube videos, websites, and books all about how someone is able to backpack with 10 lbs. on their backs. With enough Youube watching, it really not that hard to hike UL will little to no skills. Now think about why those sites are there? Most likely it is to either try to obtain some type of sponsorship(s) or to please their sponsors they already have. It hard to pick up sponsors when you are only carrying a few items. The fewer items you carry, the less opportunity available to pick up free gear or endorsements. The more you carry, the greater chances you have to be endorsed.

True ultra-light backpacking is not even noticing you are carrying a backpack. Imagine hiking in the woods and not even noticing you have a pack on. Your pack was only 1% - 2% of your health body weight. Would you even notice it? Animals don’t normal carry packs, so why should we as human 10 pounds of gear just to survive? The more items you add in your pack, the further detached from nature you become.

I would also suggest in your physical challenges there are several more obstacles such as climate, season, terrain, on or off trail, to name just a few.

Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Interesting. Backpacker magazine cited a study (this is from memory and I can't give the source) that determined the "carry ability" of any one hiker. The conclusion was that 15% of body weight is the point when the hiker begins to hunch forward. Below that, the hiker is able to stand upright as though they were not carrying a load.

Therefore, a 200 lb. hiker can carry up to 30 lbs. without altering the normal gait. The ultralight factor comes into play below that weight.

It would be interesting to see the article and how they came up with their determination. I know many hikers would are carrying around 25 pounds on their back but still hunch forward. I for one don't like to carry 30 pounds on my back because it takes away a lot from the nature experience. 30+ ruck sack is more what you would start to expect to carry on an Army road march than a backpacking trip. Each to their own.

Wolf

[MuddyWaters]

10 lbs is just a number, a goal, a ​tool to help people reduce pack weight.

Easier to achieve today in comfort than 20 yrs ago.
Ridiculously ez to purchase today.
In fact, I would go as far as to say if you cant get under 10 lbs base wt today, you arent really even trying, if thats a goal.

I can carry 6.5-7 lbs, total 3 season comfort, protection, etc good down to freezing. In a pack with room for 9 days food and 4+L water.
As always, way more to do with what you dont bring, than what you do.

Carry no stove, no inflateable pad, no bugnet, no full raingear, hell I could carry a few lbs less, but I likes creature comforts.

At some point, its light enough it dont matter to worry anymore. Not noticeable.

And it dont take much experience really.
Thats a cop out for people afraid to leave stuff behind. So is the comfort or safety arguement.

It takes thinking.
Thinking about weaknesses of your gear , and how you will mitigate certain situations
Ahead of time.
Reading, digesting, thinking, learning from others experiences
Can replace learning thru school of hard knocks for intelligent people.
SHOULD replace learning thru hard knocks for most people.

Ive seen some people so rough, careless, abusive toward gear, they need to stick with heavier, indestructible gear. They are like a bull in china shop.

[cmoulder]

And it dont take much experience really.

IMVHO there is no replacement for personal experience.

It is one thing to watch a video. It is an entirely different thing to replicate someone else's response under actual conditions, and it becomes exponentially more difficult as weather conditions worsen.

But I agree about some people's carelessness and rough handling of gear... they should stick with the heavy gear.

And I carry stove, inflatable mat, bug net and rain gear and am still easily UL.

[MuddyWaters]

IMVHO there is no replacement for personal experience.

It is one thing to watch a video. It is an entirely different thing to replicate someone else's response under actual conditions, and it becomes exponentially more difficult as weather conditions worsen.
.

Gotcha.

So, we should all experience hypothermia, so those that survive can learn to avoid it next time?

Or have our tents flooded at leadt once do we can learn not to pitch in low spots?

Or have tarp knocked down in storm on high ridge, so we figure out we need to pitch in sheltered location when weather threatens?

Most of everything we know as humans, was learned thru experiences of others. We call it school. For the most part, hiking is no different, for those intelligent enough to THINK. The internet has made this laughably easy. Google any hiking related issue you like, instant answers. Hell, thats whole purpose of this forum.
For those not thinkers...theres Darwin. A lot of them start at springer each year...

Proficiency....is developed thru practice. Not most knowledge, thats gained thru others. Experiencing problems doesnt lead to automatic self realized solutions either...thinking comes in again. But yah..some are dense and must experience things firsthand for them to stick. Not a given for everyone.

[hipbone]

Experience getting cold in your back yard before you get cold in the woods. Get wet in your back yard before you get wet in the woods. Set up a tent in your back yard before you set it up on the woods....I think that's the point I was trying to make. Experience is not something you learn on the internet, it's something you learn from doing... of course some people are faster learner's than me but I'm a hands on person. Show me a video I can learn it. Let me experience it and I'll remember it forever 😀

[cmoulder]

Instant answers

from the "experts"?

lol

[Desertdave]

Back to basics:

34 oz GG Crown VC
20 oz. BA Air Core pad
27 oz. SD back country bed elite
31 oz Big Sky Mirage 2p

112 oz , 7.00 lbs of luxurious bliss....that tent is wicked light BTW for a free standing 2p...dual entry, large dual vestibules, more floor space and higher peak headroom vs. a fly-creek platinum....and much much sturdier and only 3 oz heavier vs the fcp...coulda opted for the carbon poles and cuben body and shaved 6 oz but that 6 oz cost another $325

[Desertdave]

Back to basics:

34 oz GG Crown VC
20 oz. BA Air Core pad
27 oz. SD back country bed elite
31 oz Big Sky Mirage 2p

112 oz , 7.00 lbs of luxurious bliss....that tent is wicked light BTW for a free standing 2p...dual entry, large dual vestibules, more floor space and higher peak headroom vs. a fly-creek platinum....and much much sturdier and only 3 oz heavier vs the fcp...coulda opted for the carbon poles and cuben body and shaved 6 oz but that 6 oz cost another $325

[tammons]

The Mirage is next on my list. What options did you get ?

Right now
Golite Jam 19oz (soon to be a Zpacks Nero so less 8oz)
Nylfume bag 1oz
MYOG polysil 10x12 tarp 14 oz (membrane sil poly 4000)
Net tent 12oz or bivy 8oz depending
Montbell 800 #5 long 22 oz
Klymit static V2 18 oz

87oz - 5.4#

Back to basics:

34 oz GG Crown VC
20 oz. BA Air Core pad
27 oz. SD back country bed elite
31 oz Big Sky Mirage 2p

112 oz , 7.00 lbs of luxurious bliss....that tent is wicked light BTW for a free standing 2p...dual entry, large dual vestibules, more floor space and higher peak headroom vs. a fly-creek platinum....and much much sturdier and only 3 oz heavier vs the fcp...coulda opted for the carbon poles and cuben body and shaved 6 oz but that 6 oz cost another $325

[Desertdave]

Hi, I ordered the super ulltralight super sil body and the ultralight super sil floor. Standard aluminum poles at the time. I don't see the ultralight super sil offered in the floor currently. The poles had I think 4 versions at one point, aluminum, aluminum shorter segments, ultralight aluminum (which was what came standard with mine) and carbon. Crappy website, great product. Worth the wait if you gotta custom order. I waited 12 weeks....and my carbon/cuben upgrade comment was off....it adds $660 to shave 13 oz....That's a $1,010 26 oz tent 2p right thar boys and girls....

[tammons]

Yes, a very high price.
And shaving those last few oz always cost a ridiculous amount of $.
In the end I think it might be better to carry the slightly heavier fabric/tent that is more robust and cut everything else to the bone.
Thanks