Invasive Technologies

[weary]

The AT has been getting "less wild" every year you've been alive, and it'll likely continue. Anyone who's ever been to Germany knows how the Germans love to walk, they have trails everywhere through the woods (in Bavaria anyway), nothing most of us would describe as a "wilderness experience" but accessible and available to all. That is the future for most of what we call backcountry in the east. Get over it, embrace it, and get busy trying to preserve what is still held in common in the US and state park/NF systems.

As for cell phones and MP3's, what the hell is any of it your business, if you don't like them, don't carry them. There are still lots of places (that don't have shelters and many don't have trails) where you'll not see a soul most of the year. Most of this is all about you shelter whores having your "wilderness experience" disturbed. GIVE ME A BREAK! STAY AWAY FROM SHELTERS AND YOU WON'T HEAR A ONE-SIDED CELL CONVERSATION!

Hmmm. Let's see. I've been busy for years "trying to preserve" the trail and its environs. Two or us founded the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust 5 or 6 years ago, and bought a mountain that abutts the trail and are now working to preserve the other undeveloped mountains in the "High Peaks" region near Saddleback.

As for cell phones, it's my opinion that the presence of devices that enable instant access for help, diminishes the sense of wildness that a few still go to wild places to experience.

I have never advocated banning the phones. Just expressing a fact -- well a fact for me, and at least one or two others that I've heard from over the years.

However, if you want an easy way to help preserving the trail, let me suggest you open www.matlt.org.

Weary

[jbone]

We need a code of conduct for the use of electronic devices on the trail. The things will be on the trail and those who bring them should know how to use them on the AT according to some rules of etiquette.

Codes of conduct are for suckas!

Seriously, do we really need more people out of touch with reality making rules and expect everyone else to adhere to them... i think not.

We all should HYOH and stop telling people how to hike theirs. We have this thing in America called the Constitution, and while we don't always like some to things it lets people do, it is what this nation was built on. I can deal with someone wanting to use a cell in the woods... its people talking or texting on I-85 that really pisses me off. Anyhoo, i like to have at least one cell in the group for emergencies. As for an MP3 player, I really do not have much use for one on the trail. In cube land, its a whole different story. Of course wind in the trees sounds a helluva lot better than people bitchin' b/c someone drank the last cup of coffee and did not make more.

Gotta run, I hear the boss coming.

[middle to middle]

The Green Tunnel may be Green but the air waves are clear and colorless. I recall making camp just off the trail on the down mountain side. Further down the slope in the flat lands I could hear dishes being washed in a kitchen, a radio playing in a house, a baseball game being played in a park, and a competing radio in another house.
I know a bad place to stop. The spring was there, I was tired and hungry and lonely when I heard all the sounds of civilization. I have always resisted the urge to go to town unless necessary for supplies. We are tough us hikers.

Tom

[middle to middle]

You know the noise barriers along the beltways in cities ? Some day the AT may have them with little doors you have to go through to get to a town. Scares me and I am fearless.

Tom

[superman]

Codes of conduct are for suckas!

Seriously, do we really need more people out of touch with reality making rules and expect everyone else to adhere to them... i think not.

We all should HYOH and stop telling people how to hike theirs. We have this thing in America called the Constitution, and while we don't always like some to things it lets people do, it is what this nation was built on. I can deal with someone wanting to use a cell in the woods... its people talking or texting on I-85 that really pisses me off. Anyhoo, i like to have at least one cell in the group for emergencies. As for an MP3 player, I really do not have much use for one on the trail. In cube land, its a whole different story. Of course wind in the trees sounds a helluva lot better than people bitchin' b/c someone drank the last cup of coffee and did not make more.

Gotta run, I hear the boss coming.

OK, I'll put you down as a maybe for the Code Committee.

[Ziggy Trek]

Cell phones, Pot, weapons for self protection -- Don't ask, don't tell

[take-a-knee]

Hmmm. Let's see. I've been busy for years "trying to preserve" the trail and its environs. Two or us founded the Maine Appalachian Trail Land Trust 5 or 6 years ago, and bought a mountain that abutts the trail and are now working to preserve the other undeveloped mountains in the "High Peaks" region near Saddleback.

As for cell phones, it's my opinion that the presence of devices that enable instant access for help, diminishes the sense of wildness that a few still go to wild places to experience.

I have never advocated banning the phones. Just expressing a fact -- well a fact for me, and at least one or two others that I've heard from over the years.

However, if you want an easy way to help preserving the trail, let me suggest you open www.matlt.org.

Weary

Then quit complaining Weary, and take up skydiving if you need more danger in your life, cause AT hiking ain't very dangerous for the properly prepared. Oh, and kudos to you for your preservation efforts.

My whole point with this rant is let's not make the AT out to be something it isn't, let's just enjoy it and be thankful we have it.

[jbone]

OK, I'll put you down as a maybe for the Code Committee.

Glad you could tell I was being a smarta$$. I just wish there was a sarcastic smiley.... until then let the banana dance...

[TD55]

My whole point with this rant is let's not make the AT out to be something it isn't, let's just enjoy it and be thankful we have it.

When people ignore traditions and codes of ethics used by previous hikers on the AT, they change the AT experience. When you define the AT as it is today, you fail to undrstand the impact of what becomes "acceptable" on the trail. When you demand that you have the "right" to make these changes and ignore these traditions and ethics, you have made a decision that my rights and other peoples rights are not important, or at least as important as yours. It shows a complete lack of respect and sefishness that according to my code, may deserve an a--kicking.

Those who have hiked the AT for a few or many decades know what it used to be and see what it has become. We all have to adapt and change and learn to live with things we may not like, but we do not have to lower our standards of decency, ethics and the nature of our of behavior just because someone has decided to ignore the wisdom and common sense teachings of previous generations. A jerk is a jerk and only the jerk can cure his own jerkiness, however I have noticed over the years that nothing cures a jerk like a good old fashioned a--whoopin', or stealthy payback.

[Mags]

Nannyism is more disturbing and intrusive than any technologies that some may choose to lug into the wilderness. But that's just me.

I would argue that PLBs, SPOT, 24/7 communication etc will make nannyism worse!

I am all for HYOH..what happens when your hike imposes upon others?

If I am hearing some of you correctly, you really don't care?

My big fear is not that you are connected...it is that society will expect and demand that we all be connected. Culturally, it is happening now.

But, you all enjoy your nanny state. Know you can be reached at all times. The government and society will pat you on the head for being a good boy.



Also was able to enjoy some local hikes in my former neck of the woods. Did not see a soul for 2 hrs. Not bad for the 2nd most crowded state in the country.

I suspect where I hiked would be less wild if I was yakking on a phone for two hours.

Enough for now..off to eat some braciole and stuffed peppers for a late lunch.

[weary]

Then quit complaining Weary, and take up skydiving if you need more danger in your life, cause AT hiking ain't very dangerous for the properly prepared. Oh, and kudos to you for your preservation efforts.

My whole point with this rant is let's not make the AT out to be something it isn't, let's just enjoy it and be thankful we have it.

I remember when every fireplace had its own can dump a few feet away. When we tried to stop this practice in the 60s and early 70s, we were confronted with what was the then version of HYOH. I spoke to one "conservation" group in 1973 about the can dumps.

The response was unanimous: "What do you expect us to do with the trash? The nearest dump is 100 miles away."

Gradually, that has become the minority view. There's a new litter these days, the trash of cell phone chatter and electronic music.

I like to think that if we complain enough, a new trail ethic may emerge. It's a test. Are we less able to understand and change, than the generation of four decades ago? Stay tuned.

Weary www.matlt.org

[jzakhar]

I remember when every fireplace had its own can dump a few feet away. When we tried to stop this practice in the 60s and early 70s, we were confronted with what was the then version of HYOH. I spoke to one "conservation" group in 1973 about the can dumps.

The response was unanimous: "What do you expect us to do with the trash? The nearest dump is 100 miles away."

Gradually, that has become the minority view. There's a new litter these days, the trash of cell phone chatter and electronic music.

I like to think that if we complain enough, a new trail ethic may emerge. It's a test. Are we less able to understand and change, than the generation of four decades ago? Stay tuned.

Weary www.matlt.org

Some of us don't consider music or communication devices garbage. I am still not sure I see the harm of my text messaging my girl friend at night from my tent. Or using an MP3 player to drown out the snoring of others in shelters.

I am happy to hear you managed to help change peoples views on real trash on the trail, that is a good thing. However to equate trash with a device others find useful is silly. You are imposing your idea of right and wrong on someone else. In this case the electronic device itself does not harm the trail or the experience of anyone, including you. The user (yes, yapping away loudly at a shelter) can, but that same user can ruin it many other ways if they are rude and inconsiderate.

I spent time with a blind guy this year who had a cell phone and a SPOT, there is nothing wrong with a safety net. For everyone here complaining, if something ever did happen and you were hurt, would you refuse help via a cell phone call ?

Good luck with your crusade against modern devices on the trail, I have a feeling you are not going to get too far with it.

[TD55]

Some of us don't consider music or communication devices garbage. I am still not sure I see the harm of my text messaging my girl friend at night from my tent. Or using an MP3 player to drown out the snoring of others in shelters.


I spent time with a blind guy this year who had a cell phone and a SPOT, there is nothing wrong with a safety net. For everyone here complaining, if something ever did happen and you were hurt, would you refuse help via a cell phone call ?

Good luck with your crusade against modern devices on the trail, I have a feeling you are not going to get too far with it.

I don't see a crusade to ban modern devices, rather, there appears to be an effort by some to point out how these devices can be used in such a way as to be rude at the least, and to have a serious negative impact on an individuals experience on the trail at worst. Texting in your own tent is not the problem, nor is listening to music with headphones.

[take-a-knee]

When people ignore traditions and codes of ethics used by previous hikers on the AT, they change the AT experience. When you define the AT as it is today, you fail to undrstand the impact of what becomes "acceptable" on the trail. When you demand that you have the "right" to make these changes and ignore these traditions and ethics, you have made a decision that my rights and other peoples rights are not important, or at least as important as yours. It shows a complete lack of respect and sefishness that according to my code, may deserve an a--kicking.

Those who have hiked the AT for a few or many decades know what it used to be and see what it has become. We all have to adapt and change and learn to live with things we may not like, but we do not have to lower our standards of decency, ethics and the nature of our of behavior just because someone has decided to ignore the wisdom and common sense teachings of previous generations. A jerk is a jerk and only the jerk can cure his own jerkiness, however I have noticed over the years that nothing cures a jerk like a good old fashioned a--whoopin', or stealthy payback.

--SNIP- Take the political statements and Internet tough guy act else where...


As for the "AT experience" whatever that is, just mind your own damn business and enjoy the trail, and be thankful you have a life and a trail, and you'll have a much better "experience".

[fiddlehead]

Ah, I see TAK is working on his friend's list again. Good luck with that.

Weary, as usual has thoughtful opinions and they make one think about the history and future of the trail. Thanks.

Mags, as usual, i agree with you. I see a need of phone ethics in so many places in the world anymore. I believe it will happen, but will take time.
Who likes it when you are in a line somewhere and the person in front of you gets a phone call and starts telling stories and ignoring the people waiting for them or you are having a discussion at a table full of people, and one of them gets a call and starts talking very loudly into the phone so that other's can't even hear themselves anymore.
These people either don't know they are disrupting too many others or, certainly need to be told.
Cell phone users need to walk away from others. If not, they need to be told about it.

I see little difference in this pollution than the obvious disposing of your trash at shelters. It used to be the norm. It has been stopped (usually). Good analogy Weary.

Take a Knee, Take a Hike. Chill out on the yankee go home attitude and learn to get along with people, aye?

[weary]

Some of us don't consider music or communication devices garbage. I am still not sure I see the harm of my text messaging my girl friend at night from my tent. Or using an MP3 player to drown out the snoring of others in shelters.

I am happy to hear you managed to help change peoples views on real trash on the trail, that is a good thing. However to equate trash with a device others find useful is silly. You are imposing your idea of right and wrong on someone else. In this case the electronic device itself does not harm the trail or the experience of anyone, including you. The user (yes, yapping away loudly at a shelter) can, but that same user can ruin it many other ways if they are rude and inconsiderate.

I spent time with a blind guy this year who had a cell phone and a SPOT, there is nothing wrong with a safety net. For everyone here complaining, if something ever did happen and you were hurt, would you refuse help via a cell phone call ?

Good luck with your crusade against modern devices on the trail, I have a feeling you are not going to get too far with it.

I can relate to that view. I heard it many times in the past. No one equated a can dump with damage to the trail or any damage to anyone else, Most agreed that, "Afterall, they said, it was only a tiny campsite on miles of trail. An occasional campsite among miles of a wild river. The rivers and trail remained wild, they said. And believed it. I didn't. I still don't.

Nor do I expect a chorus of agreement with my views. But I sense that an increasing few will eventually speak. Truly there is nothing like an increasingly few to change practices. Anyway, I keep trying to encourage buffers to an endangered trail, now mostly owned by developers,, and to encourage rational restraint when using invasive devices on a wild trail, or a wild river.

Weary

[ed bell]

Maybe I am in a minority, but I was thinking about fiddlehead's post and it made me consider a few things relative to cellphones and my everyday life.
I first considered the impact of someone talking on a cellphone while being serviced at the checkout at a grocery store. That, to me is the epitome of rudeness. That led me to the problem of folks on the cellphone while driving. While some can pull this off, most seem to be distracted to the point where the surrounding cars are being unnecessarily subjected to someones negligence. These are just a couple of examples of people being selfish and inconsiderate of others.
That leads to a quandary in regards to the device itself. Hell, it ain't even a quandary. Pure and simple, the device is not the problem at all. The use of it is. I'm not a fan of movies and I have not spent much time in church lately, but cellphone use is most likely frowned upon in either location. If it was necessary to utilize the phone in either place, I imagine folks would excuse themselves to take care of that. Why would anywhere in the woods be any different, if not far more easy to pull off. The electronic devices are not going to magically disappear but with a little consideration and respect, the use of such devices would have little to no impact on any fellow traveler. That is and will be the reality from this point forward.
I carry a cellphone in my backpack. It stays powered off. I don't get it out in "public". No other hiker I encounter knows I have it. I like it that way and I can't see how that would be troublesome to anyone. I would say that the same could be said for an MP3 player or radio providing that the sound coming from either is strictly controlled. These things seem easy and obvious to me.
I'm sure that some feel that those devices have no business being in my pack. I'm also sure that some feel that they can utilize their devices any way they want and could care less who hears them, after all, those folks can walk away, or camp else where.

I think that with little consideration and respect, this issue could become the molehill that seems to be, and is, growing into a mountain.

[TD55]

Well, unfortunantly it ain't worth the fuel for me to come to Delaware so's you can kick my a$$, not that I'd want to come to Delaware anyway. Did Joe Biden teach you to be a rude SOB? I guess you are an FDR fan also.

The AT is what it is, at least to the realistic non-morons among us.

As for demands, it is you "head up your 4th point of contact types" who want to demand that others comport to whatever idiotic standard you dream up. I couldn't give a rat's a$$ whether someone listens to an MP3 or carries a cell. That is his business, that is hard for a lot of yankee, meddling busybodies to come to grips with, I know, but you'd really be a lot better off for it.

As for the "AT experience" whatever that is, just mind your own damn business and enjoy the trail, and be thankful you have a life and a trail, and you'll have a much better "experience".

Never said a person doesn't have the right to carry these devices
, I carry them myself. Don't care if you carry laptop and watch movies at night, It's not my business, at least not if it has no impact on me and my space and my environment. But once you make another person uncomfortable with what you are doing in a shared space and environment, and a person lets you know in a polite way that they are uncomfortable with your activity, you have to make a decision. Sounds like you took my comment about jerks personal, like that shoe fit, sorry 'bout that, I was not talking to you directly to you, rather jerks in general and how they can be dealt with.

As for the "At experience" that seems to leave you mystified and to be beyond your ability to understand, I'm sorry for that.

[Boudin]

It is not the device that is the problem....it's the people. More and more, our society is becoming more selfish and less considerate of others. It seems to be the way we are raised. A song comes to mind and we should all listen to the lyrics. It's the "Dickhead Song". I don't know who wrote it, but Jimmy Buffett sings a version of it and I think Todd Snider does too. One line of the song goes something like this:

He's just a ****ing dickhead.
He's been one all his life.
If he ever gets married
He'll be a dickhead with a wife.

That being said, I don't think that it is technology that is the problem. It's not the cell phone, the MP3, the stove we use, whether we hang, tarp or tent. It's not how extremely lite our pack is. All of these can be a great tool and bring us pleasure as an individual if used properly and considerately. It is however a plain and simple fact....some people are just dickheads.

[take-a-knee]

It is not the device that is the problem....it's the people. More and more, our society is becoming more selfish and less considerate of others. It seems to be the way we are raised. A song comes to mind and we should all listen to the lyrics. It's the "Dickhead Song". I don't know who wrote it, but Jimmy Buffett sings a version of it and I think Todd Snider does too. One line of the song goes something like this:

He's just a ****ing dickhead.
He's been one all his life.
If he ever gets married
He'll be a dickhead with a wife.

That being said, I don't think that it is technology that is the problem. It's not the cell phone, the MP3, the stove we use, whether we hang, tarp or tent. It's not how extremely lite our pack is. All of these can be a great tool and bring us pleasure as an individual if used properly and considerately. It is however a plain and simple fact....some people are just dickheads.

We are all dickheads, more or less, some quite a bit more than others. A dickhead is simply a selfish person, that is the natural human condition. Even those who desire to suppress such selfish urges secretly look up to the full-blown dickheads. IE, who would most people rather trade lives with, Donald Trump or Mother Teresa?

--More poltical drivel snippage --


Some dickheads are rude and have loud cell chats at shelters, other dickheads get exercised about it. Sounds like two sides of the same coin to me.

"If there is no God, all things are permissable" Dostoyevski