Talk to Adult leaders of Boy Scouts

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I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.

BT

[MOWGLI]

LNT
Staying found
Shelter ethics
Opportunities for day hikes and 2-3 day trips within 75 miles
Other Trails (NY's Long Path and Northville Placid Trail)

Good luck!

[Wise Old Owl]

The Scouting organization is great on emergencies, group hiking, and all the basics, where they fall down a lot on is Light Backpacking, They don't have to be under ten pounds, they are still taking too much heavy material with them. Show them bear bones adjustments in their packs per season as some troops are out year round. Their biggest mistake is a cheap & heavy sleeping bag that isn't seasonal - let me know if you need more.

[JAK]

First and last, I would encourage the heck out of them. It seems to me that boy scouts and girl guides spend way too much time indoors and not enough time outdoors. I would also enourage splitting up into smaller groups, not so much to discourage larger groups, just because I think they can have more fun and learn more and be more manageable in smaller groups. As I recall the troops are already sub-divided into sixes or whatever they are called. You might need more parents, unless you have some older scouts or guides, but that's not a bad thing either. You can combine the less experienced adults with more the experienced scouts/guides so one adult per group should be sufficient. Once you are down to manageable groups of 6-10 its no different than any other backpacking trip. Not sure what the group size restrictions are, but with proper organization and good communications, as you should expect a scout/guide troop, it should not be a problem. The last thing I would add would be to run it like a military operation, standardizing clothing and gear and food. The adult can simply observe and recommend and be responsible for communications and relaying orders from up the chain of command, and as a back check on navigation and safety, and too provide some comfort and leadership if a situation arises. The scout leader of the 6-10 can enforce stuff like regular roll call, what clothes to put on for a given activity, when to stop, when to move, when to eat, and apoint a second to do stuff like navigation. Perhaps they can take turns as leader under the direction of the adult. I am not sure about Girl Guides, but I now that boys thrive on this kind of stuff, and a mix troop of boys and girls is pretty much the same.

Points:
1. Organize - into manageable sub-units of 6-10, and buddy up within those units.
2. Communications - between sub-units and to a central command.
3. Standardize - clothing and gear and food.
4. Minimize - non-essentil junk food and junk gear.
5. Basically, run it like a military operation. Its fun.

Not sure if that answers your question. Sounds like you are already on the right track if you are starting with a meeting for the Adult Leaders. I would start by discussing what role they are to play, and then how to organize and facilitate the scouts to enforce their own rules and lead their own groups, with an adult as an observer as each group.

[NICKTHEGREEK]

I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.

BT

Tell the leaders to plan every trip by the BP merit badge and scouting LNT guidelines. Keep the crews small!

[JAK]

Another thought, would be to first have the group of adult leaders/observers come up with a list of activities, then string all of those activities and subactivities into a plan, and then to figure out the organization and communication and rules to carry out the plan.

List of Possible Activities:
1. Initial/Final Rendevouz and Inspection.
2. Transportation to/from and Trail Head.
3. Route marches
4. Setting up Camp
5. Meals and Ablutions
6. Field Kit Inspections
7. Leave No Trace or Low Impact Woodcraft - making fire and tea
8. Leave No Trace or Low Impact Woodcraft - making a hiking stick
9. Leave No Trace or Low Impact Woodcraft - plant recognition
10. Leave No Trace or Low Impact Woodcraft - keeping a field note book
11. Troop Gatherings - usual routine, whatever that is
12. Troop Activities and Competitions - usual routines, whatever they are
13. Ghost stories

[Fiddleback]

LNT
Staying found
Shelter ethics
Opportunities for day hikes and 2-3 day trips within 75 miles
Other Trails (NY's Long Path and Northville Placid Trail)

Good luck!

LNT and outdoor ethics first came to my mind...

The last time I hiked the C&O Canal I passed a group of scouts with two or three adult leader heading the other way. One of the adults was carrying an ax. A little further down the tow path I ran into multiple chopped down trees, most 3 to 5" in diameter. I didn't have proof but the coincidence of the ax-toting adult 'leader' and the very freshly cut down trees would have had me voting 'guilty.' I had a long Scouting career, virtually all of it in that area...and what I saw sickened and angered me.

Yeah...teach LNT...and teach 'em to get rid of those SOB's if they can't learn. IMHO.

FB

[JAK]

Tell the leaders to plan every trip by the BP merit badge and scouting LNT guidelines. Keep the crews small!

Is there a link. I am curious, and out of date. I do all my scouting now one on one with my daughter but would really like a good source of ideas. She has joined a Girl Guide troop but it seems like its all indoors stuff, so we are doing the outdoors stuff on our own. It would be nice if there were more like minded adults, but around here there just ain't. I have managed a few short dayhikes with another parent and their kids but that is about it.

I say one link awhile back that was right up my alley. It was more parent/child based and seemed to draw alot of inspiration from Native Americans. Anyone recall the name of it so I can google it? It was called pathfinders or something keepers or something like that. I always thought it would be great to merge the two ideas into one, involving parents more, and focusing more on the outdoors, but more kids also. I like the native american theme also, but think a little military organization theme is good also, and quite natural, and not all that different really. I guess I am mostly just thinking about a return to the way scouting used to be or was meant to be. It always had that urban/citizen component to it, which is excellent, but I think getting out into nature and the real outdoors has to be the real heart of it, in my opinion. Otherwise its just another thing to keep them occupied, and away from living a real life.

[JAK]

Depending on where you live I think expecting boy scouts to be LNT is a bit extreme. Obviously they need to be tought follow the rules, more than anyone, but if any group should be encouraged to get out there and enjoy the outdoors and practice environmentally sensitive wood skills and wood craft it should be our young people. Perhaps trail maintenance would be a good activity for guide and scout troops.

Frankly, I am consistently amazed at all the negative comments about scouts on this forum. I don't care what they do. If they do stuff wrong they need to fix it, but they need to be made to keep trying. They have more right to be there than we do, in my opinion. I am squarely on their side. They are the future so we better help them get out there and learn to get it right, not to stay home and screw it up from a distance.

[skinewmexico]

Stay found. What a great saying.

They push LNT pretty heavy down here, and it comes from National. As much as it irritates a lot of people, Scouts are the only organization actively pushing an outdoor lifestyle (that I know of), so we need to support them.

I bought the "Lighten Up" CD for $5 from Gossamer Gear to show to our troop. It's really good.

[Christus Cowboy]

The Scouting organization is great on emergencies, group hiking, and all the basics, where they fall down a lot on is Light Backpacking, They don't have to be under ten pounds, they are still taking too much heavy material with them. Show them bear bones adjustments in their packs per season as some troops are out year round. Their biggest mistake is a cheap & heavy sleeping bag that isn't seasonal - let me know if you need more.

I agree with the Owl on this one.... My interactions with the Boy Scouts have been good but my observations back up what Owl is saying here..... In fact the last three scout troops that I ran into on the trail had packed way too much for the weekend trips they were on, many of them used cotton clothing during the winter months which further accelerated hypothermia and one of the troops seemed surprised when I offered to help them "hang their food" in camp..... Much of the overpacking is because of concerned parents but some updating of Boy Scout material as it relates to backpacking would probably help here......

[KG4FAM]

The Scouting organization is great on emergencies, group hiking, and all the basics, where they fall down a lot on is Light Backpacking, They don't have to be under ten pounds, they are still taking too much heavy material with them. Show them bear bones adjustments in their packs per season as some troops are out year round. Their biggest mistake is a cheap & heavy sleeping bag that isn't seasonal - let me know if you need more.

When I was a kid my scout troop knew nothing on appropriate gear. We were out there in cotton socks, blue jeans, and flannel shirts. Every trip meant bad blisters. Our tents desperately needed a new waterproof coating/seam sealing. Looking back, every piece of gear out troop had was in bad need of preventative maintenance, but nobody knew what to do.

One big constraint is money. I know that my dad would not shell out the money for anything more expensive than Wal-Mart. Our troop lacked the knowledge and money to make it work like I do these days. Tell the leaders about cheap solutions like dress socks and athletic clothes from Wal-Mart.

[KG4FAM]

one of the troops seemed surprised when I offered to help them "hang their food" in camp

I never heard about hanging my food when I was in scouts.

[brianos]

Is there a link...

Sure, all current merit badge requirements are online. The Backpacking MB book is excellent! I've given a few backpacking talks for my boys' troop in recent years. PM me if you'd like a copy of the PPT slides I used for the presentation. I try to convey that a different mindset is needed for a trek vs. a typical Scouting base-camp experience, and focus on bringing only essentials, minimizing weight, proper foot care, not skimping on water, and minimizing impact to the environment.

LNT is well-entrenched in the current BSA literature (Handbook, Fieldbook, merit badge books), but I reckon there may be several Scouting adults who were raised pre-LNT and need to unlearn some outdoor habits

[trippclark]

I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.

BT

I taught a 2 hour workshop at our council's University of Scouting in 2006 on the topic of Backpacking. I'd be happy to e-mail you my outline (rough though it is) if you'd like. Just PM me with your e-mail address.

Tripp

[KG4FAM]

Tell them about freezer bag cooking as well. On base camp style trips we had cooking groups and cleaning groups and a schedule for it and it sucked. I would have rather boiled some water and been done with it.

[Rain Man]

I,m leading a talk or discussion on the AT on 19 November 2008 for Aldult Leaders of a youth group (Boy Scouts) in Ulster County, NY. Whould like to hear from this group on what topics should be discussed.

Well, since you asked, I think they hear enough about packs and pants and food and water, I think they need to hear about morals and ethics and leadership.

I've run into a variety of Boy Scout groups on the AT over the years and have found some to be just wonderful and some that should be run out of the Scouts and out of our national parks. The sad reality is that it only takes those few Scouts, Troops, and Scoutmasters/Leaders to be the bad apples that spoil the whole bunch. And one bad leader does spoil the whole troop.

I don't mean to say that they do it on purpose, but since you asked, I'd say topics that need to be discussed are morals and ethics and leading by example (or whatever words you care to use to describe the subject of honesty, abiding by the law, respect for others, and so forth).

As I said, I've run across just as many who are great.

RainMan

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[Christus Cowboy]

Sure, all current merit badge requirements are online. The Backpacking MB book is excellent! .......there may be several Scouting adults who were raised pre-LNT and need to unlearn some outdoor habits

bri... I'm glad you posted.... you stated the Backpacking MB is excellent which I'm sure is. I just know when I speak with scouts and their leaders on the trail there seems to be a strong emphasis of being prepared which is a great premise in an of itself. That said, though I wonder if the cultural anchor of being prepared translates into these troops bring alot more gear than is necessary? Just a thought......

[SteveJ]

I assume you're talking to a group at some training session, and don't have any idea as to the experience level (scouting, outdoors, or backpacking), so you'll have to start from the basics and work up from there, staying pretty high level. I'd focus on:

* SM should keep it fun, making sure the challenge level is appropriate to each unit's group of scouts
* short history / current challenges of the AT
* emphasize LNT (challenge the group to recite the Outdoor Code - I'll bet most won't be able to)
* cover trail / shelter ethics and courtesy
* if it's your "thing," basics of lightweight backpacking. I've seen many scouts show up for their first trip with too much weight (altho' under the "30 % of body weight" rule), and never be seen again.....

One thing our troop started a few years ago: have an "essentials" list for every backpacking trip. Give out an award for the scout (maybe even one award for the younger, first year scouts and another for the older scouts) that has the lowest pack weight, and has all the essentials. We usually do a $25 gift certificate to Bass Pro Shop or REI.... We always do a pack inspection for all scouts under 1st class either the Monday night before the trip, or the Friday night that we leave. The issue is usually NOT dealing with what they don't have, but going through and taking out what they don't need.....

[Time To Fly 97]

AT overview - fun facts like length, what the blazes look like, mountain ranges covered, pictures, blue blazes usually lead to water or views

Typical gear, evolution in gear (tent to tarp to hammock, etc.), bombproof to lightweight, heavy boots to trail runners, advances in clothing, "surviving it" to "how comfortable can I get?"

AT - more than a hiking trip...journey to physical, mental and spiritual health

AT corridor - MASSIVE legal and political effort to protect the trail from urban encroachment, trail changes every year due to reroutes, multi vs. single use trails, private property

What goes into physically making the AT maybe leading into trail maintenance projects (Eagle projects in coordination with local trail maintainance crews)

Resupply and logistics: Flexible itinerary - go with the flow mentality, sources of information to plan, "General delivery: Hold for AT-hiker", bounce boxes, dehydrated food, nero vs. zero days, hitch to town

Tie the AT into endless opportunities for skill awards and merit badges

Leave No Trace is a FUNDAMENTAL BSA mantra. So are lead by example... and no one is done until the TEAM is done

Best practices: AT skills and lessons last a lifetime - they are also a responsibility: backwoods safety, campfire safety (how many fires out West?), making sure you have enough water, first aid (sprained ankle miles from help - what do you do?), hypothermia - "cotton kills", how to read maps

Question for the next generation: How much of your life do you actually experience without electric stuff? The woods are a great place to escape from information bombardment, gain confidence and opportunities to give back to others. When I was in high school, my friends and I camped - the fun we had was ridiculous - but we knew how to be comfortable and safe and watch over the poeple who didn't know.

Hope your lecture is a complete success!

Happy hiking!

TTF