backpacking stove input needed

[dla]

Uhhhmm, ....The guys I hang out with in very cold, high elevation trips do not like alcohol, it performs lousy, at best, under those circumstances. Again that was part of the OPs' criteria for stove options.

Well they must be on a different planet then. Alcohol works great in the cold and altitude has no effect. Now if you are talking about melting snow for water, then I agree that a white gas stove is the best choice only because of the raw btu output. But I don't camp where the only water is snow. And there's nothing magic about melting snow - alcohol stoves melt snow too.

I have a feeling that a lot of new hikers buy equipment for Everest, i.e. unrealistic expectations. Personally I apply the KISS to my equipment choices.

[Mags]

A. But I don't camp where the only water is snow. And there's nothing magic about melting snow - alcohol stoves melt snow too.

Probably not deep winter camping then if there is water available? Water does freeze in very cold temps.

Alcohol can melt snow, but it does take more fuel.

As for alcohol in very cold weather. Hmm... Seems to go against the grain for what people seem to experience. Alcohol does not vaporize as well in cold temperatures as white gas. The heat output is also about half. Not good for efficient winter use.


Sure, it can work. But, it is not very efficient. If you are camping near water and not ice/snow, I just wonder how cold it is? Below about 15F, I think whitegas may be better (esp. if it is below 15F consistently. i.e. Does not warm up during the day).

In any case, I believe in the KISS principle too. That means realizing that different tools are needed for a different job. Remember, you are talking to a guy who advocates a $4 thrift-store shirt for hiking.

[Lyle]

Agree with Mags on this one. For me it's alcohol for the majority of 3-season use, SVEA for dead of winter use. This seems about like the best options for me.

[Mags]

Agree with Mags on this one. For me it's alcohol for the majority of 3-season use, SVEA for dead of winter use. This seems about like the best options for me.

...I'll also add a propane stove in a hut.



(Like my hut slippers ???? )

[trouthunter]

I guess the term cold is subjective.
Maybe some people call cold anything below freezing. I consider cold, high elevation temps. at or below 0*F. This would also include windy to gusty conditions if above tree line.

From what I have experienced melting your drinking water requires a large pot (large surface area) just to net a decent amount of water.
White gas is just more efficient and is less affected by the wind, although we did build a wind deflector for our "kitchen" out of snow and used a wind screen.

The two guys I did see using alcohol were forced to do so in their tent.
It's one thing to catch your tent on fire in moderate temps, but it can be a serious problem in frigid temps.

I wouldn't use alcohol in sub-zero temps any more than I would wear my FGL welted boots to thru hike the AT.

[dla]

Probably not deep winter camping then if there is water available? Water does freeze in very cold temps.

Alcohol can melt snow, but it does take more fuel.

As for alcohol in very cold weather. Hmm... Seems to go against the grain for what people seem to experience. Alcohol does not vaporize as well in cold temperatures as white gas. The heat output is also about half. Not good for efficient winter use.


Sure, it can work. But, it is not very efficient. If you are camping near water and not ice/snow, I just wonder how cold it is? Below about 15F, I think whitegas may be better (esp. if it is below 15F consistently. i.e. Does not warm up during the day).

In any case, I believe in the KISS principle too. That means realizing that different tools are needed for a different job. Remember, you are talking to a guy who advocates a $4 thrift-store shirt for hiking.

Running water doesn't freeze up. Alcohol vaporizes better than white gas.

You're right though about the heat output - but remember that it's same heat output whether it is 70* or 15*, which means your coffee water still boils as before. Doesn't do any good to generate more heat than you can use.

So let me be clear about alcohol stoves - they work BETTER than white gas stoves in the cold, because they are simple. BUT, and this is important if you are going to camp away from a water source, a white gas stove is 100X better at melting lots and lots of snow for a group of people (assuming you've got a snow melt pot).

I'm only posting this because there is a lot of misunderstanding about alcohol as a stove fuel.

I froze a Trangia burner, full of fuel, in a block of ice with just the lid exposed. Ice temp was 0*F (yes, ice can get colder than 32*F). Unscrewed the lid and lit the burner by touching the match to the fuel. It ran slower than normal, but it ran. Let me know how a whisperlite does in similar conditons.

[Lyle]

Running water doesn't freeze up.

Gee, wish I'd known that before I went and climbed those waterfalls in the UP a couple of years ago!

[trouthunter]

Running water doesn't freeze up. Alcohol vaporizes better than white gas.

You're right though about the heat output - but remember that it's same heat output whether it is 70* or 15*, which means your coffee water still boils as before. Doesn't do any good to generate more heat than you can use.

So let me be clear about alcohol stoves - they work BETTER than white gas stoves in the cold, because they are simple. BUT, and this is important if you are going to camp away from a water source, a white gas stove is 100X better at melting lots and lots of snow for a group of people (assuming you've got a snow melt pot).

I'm only posting this because there is a lot of misunderstanding about alcohol as a stove fuel.

I froze a Trangia burner, full of fuel, in a block of ice with just the lid exposed. Ice temp was 0*F (yes, ice can get colder than 32*F). Unscrewed the lid and lit the burner by touching the match to the fuel. It ran slower than normal, but it ran. Let me know how a whisperlite does in similar conditons.

Put a fan in front of it, turn it on high, and tell me how well it works then,
that's a stupid test, not relevant to real conditions.
The Whisperlite, or SVEA, or Primus, will melt more snow, quicker, and with less fuel consumption in real conditions.
How does anything else matter???????

Use alcohol in winter alpine conditions if you want to, but don't blow smoke my way.

[Mags]

Running water doesn't freeze up. Alcohol vaporizes better than white gas.

It does however tend to get a thick layer of ice over it that you have to break through on occasion. Trust me. I had to do this at Brainard
Lake area.

Hey..running water does not freeze right? Er..maybe not?



As for alcohol vaporizing better..hmm, most sites tend to disagree with you. Be it third-party info sites, manufacturers, etc.

I'm only posting this because there is a lot of misunderstanding about alcohol as a stove fuel.

Indeed.


But, enough of this contest. There is a reason why people do not use alcohol for winter camping. You disagree. We are just going to go back and forth and I think we both have better things to do.

[garlic08]

An alcohol stove has worked just fine for me on solo overnight winter trips. The slow start works great for melting powder snow, where it's possible to burn a pot with too hot a flame. I've done this in 0F at treeline (11,000') in moderate wind, in the vestibule of my tarptent.

I was really surprised how well it worked for me. The first time I tried it I had traveled to Crater Lake, OR with all my camping stuff, I thought, but found that I'd forgotten the valve for my Whisperlite. The old pepsi can stove ended up working great for an overnight ski tour on the rim.

So it's good for occasional use and on short trips, if you can do it with just a few extra ounces of alcohol. For sure, for longer trips and more people, if you need to carry half a liter of alcohol or more, I'd agree that white gas is the way to go.

[dla]

Put a fan in front of it, turn it on high, and tell me how well it works then,
that's a stupid test, not relevant to real conditions.
The Whisperlite, or SVEA, or Primus, will melt more snow, quicker, and with less fuel consumption in real conditions.
How does anything else matter???????

Use alcohol in winter alpine conditions if you want to, but don't blow smoke my way.

Works great in the wind - I use a windscreen. Do you?

I agree that the white gas stoves are the best for melting snow. And for the .000001% of the time you camp in those conditions you should use them. But for the other 99.99999% of time you could save money, and hassle with an alcohol stove.

I think my cup of coffee matters. My couscous matters. My spaghetti matters. My lentil stew matters. My oatmeal matters. My frozen fingers pumping up pressure matters. The gas smell in my pack matters. My peace and quiet matters.

[zelph]

I used the Starlyte burner with denatured alcohol to thaw the lock mechanism on my car this past winter when I was up in St. Paul MN. It was -13 degrees, that minus 13 degrees with wind blowing at a good clip. Watch the video. I had the fuel and burner in my trunk. Both were -13 degrees.

[Skidsteer]

I used the Starlyte burner with denatured alcohol to thaw the lock mechanism on my car this past winter when I was up in St. Paul MN. It was -13 degrees, that minus 13 degrees with wind blowing at a good clip. Watch the video. I had the fuel and burner in my trunk. Both were -13 degrees.

How'd you get that butane lighter to work in -13?

[trouthunter]

I have three alcohol stoves, a bushbuddy, a homemade wood gas stove, a whisperlite, and a primus.

In really cold windy weather the PRESSURIZED white gas performs best!

You guys are just addicted to alcohol and want to cram your bias down the throats of others.
Use whatever the hell you want, it doesn't make it better!

I'm moving on.

[Skidsteer]

I have three alcohol stoves, a bushbuddy, a homemade wood gas stove, a whisperlite, and a primus.

I have more stoves than that on my bedroom dresser.

[Skidsteer]

I have more stoves than that on my bedroom dresser.

[oops56]

I got two shops full all types gas kero. alk. sterno etc yep some wood burners also oh candle burner

[sheepdog]

I have more stoves than that on my bedroom dresser.

I'll see your 6 stoves on the bedroom dresser and raise you five stoves on my kitchen table.
I fold to the man with two shops full of stoves.

[Mzee]

If it's that cold, I'm staying home.

I was going to push all in with my giant Costco pretzel container full of stoves, but I, too, fold to the man with two shops full of stoves.

[dla]

I was tempted to get in with my 10 SVEA, 4 Trangia, 3 sideburner, 1 pepsi-can alcohol stoves, and 1 whitegas, 1 propane stoves but no-way I'm going up against a shop full of stoves. I'm out.