Jacket for Winter Camping

[Bster13]

So I'm going w/ a group of friends into the Adirondacks in February. Last year it got down to -20 degrees F. Possibly some snow shoeing this time around, but alas nothing special, mostly just trying to stay warm haha.

I understand that 800 Fill is better than 650 Fill down given the same weight...but, as I view the many down jackets available I am having trouble figuring out which coats are warmer than others. For instance:

The Marmot Zeus Jacket is 1 lb. 1 oz. w/ 800 fill down:
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catal...ail.cfm/MA4208

Then u have the Mountain Hardware Sub Zero Jack @ 1 lbs, 11 oz w/ 650-Fill Power 85/15 Goose down:
http://www.basegear.com/mountain-har...down-sale.html

The Zeus is lighter, but higher fill down...the Sub Zero is more weight (more down?) but lower quality down (does the 85/15 mean ratio of down to feathers? Thus even less warmth for the weight?) and it ~looks~ fuller and warmer.

How am I supposed to know which is warmer? How do I know one jacket doesn't just have extremely heavy zippers () as opposed to more ounces of down to keep me warm?

Please forgive my newbie knowledge...gotta learn somewhere, right?

[Dirtygaiters]

This is taken from another forum, but I think it's a pretty accurate statement, so I'm going to quote it here:

I lump down jackets into the following categories:

ultralight- less than 6 ounces of down, very light shell for above freezing)

sweaters- between 6-9 ounces, usually sewn through with no hood and a short cut. Good to maybe 35 degrees.

Parkas- 9-11 ounces of down, maybe baffled with a hood and longer cut. Ideal to the 20s.

Expedition- the monster puffballs.

For a jacket that will keep you warm down to the -20s, you're going to want a serious expedition parka. I'd look at the Feathered Friends Rock and Ice Parka or Mountain Hardwear Absolute Zero Parka. At the least, you should make sure that the jacket has box-baffled construction, and 9 ounces of down at the least.

Regarding the Marmot Zeus jacket, that may have 800 fp down, but the loft on that jacket looks extremely thin, and it has sewn thru construction, meaning that the edges of each down compartment are lines of zero loft where the cold can get in. I wouldn't expect a jacket like that to be good if it's colder than maybe 30 degrees F. The Mountain Hardwear Sub Zero is a substantial jacket that will likely keep the average person warm down to the 20s, maybe even into the teens, but as you mentioned, it is made with 650 f.p. down so it's going to be a bit heavier than a jacket filled with premium down.

[hnryclay]

I have the sub-zero vest, and it is nice for layering under a shell in 10-20 degree weather. Sub-Zero weather would be a strain for it IMO.

[Mocs123]

For -20 you are going to have to go with something much warmer and more expensive than the jackets you listed. That is COLD!

I agree with the Feathered Friends suggestions above, but you might also look at the Nunatak Torre Expedition Parka: http://www.nunatakusa.com/site07/garments/torre.htm

[Panzer1]

For -20 degrees I would want a jacket/parka with a hood. I didn't see a hood with either of the jackets you listed. Even if you have a warm hat, I still would like to pull a hood over the hat when its -20.

Also, if this is for -20 weather, I would get it extra larger than you normally wear. This way you will have room to add shirts/fleece/sweaters/whatever under the jacket.

I don't wear an insulated jacket in the winter, I just have a extra large un-insulated gortex shell with a good hood and long cut in the waist with longer than normal sleeves. Then I just keep adding layers under this. I like to have space to add a max of 4 layers under the shell.

Panzer
ps I don't like goose down jackets anyway, there too bulkey.

[Dirtygaiters]

Just a quick question to the original poster, but did you mean you would like to be able to be comfortable stand around in -20 degree weather, for instance doing camp chores, standing around camp at night, and be comfortable? Or do you intend to get into an adequately rated sleeping bag as soon as it gets too cold for you (for instance if the temp drops below 0F)? -20 is a really cold temperature to be standing around in camp, but if the average low you experience in camp is more in the 0-10 degree range, and it onyl drops into the negative teens at the midnight hour when you wouldn't be up anyway, then you could go with a slightly lighter-weight parka than the ones mentioned above. Perhaps even a Feathered Friends Volant. This is all assuming that the daytime temperature could be expected to stay above zero.

[Panzer1]

Just a word of caution here. -20 degrees is cold enough to die.
Be very careful with your planning.

Panzer

[Dirtygaiters]

Hopefully he would have a sleeping bag rated to at least -20 is what I was getting at...

[Mags]

Hopefully he would have a sleeping bag rated to at least -20 is what I was getting at...

That's what I was thinking. I don't think you'll need jacket good to -20. If is -20F DURING THE DAY..hell, I'm a wimp, I ain't gonna go out in that weather.

[Panzer1]

Are you going to be camping or are you staying in a cabin?

Panzer

[Feral Bill]

If you can afford it, get an expedition parka. $$$$$ Should weigh a couple of pounds, not be sewn through and have a hood. Otherwise, you will need several layers of lesser clothing. In sub zero weather, if you go above treeline on a windy day, you may need all your layers even walking uphill. I this is your first Adirondak winter trip, please read up on winter camping and be very cautious. You should have great fun.

[Wags]

-20 is like, denali or northern canada weather. that's freaking freezing. where are you planning on encountering those kind of temps?

[Feral Bill]

-20 is like, denali or northern canada weather. that's freaking freezing. where are you planning on encountering those kind of temps?

Not rare in the Adirondaks, Whites, or Maine. Not unpleasent, either, if you are prepared.

[Bster13]

OK let me clean this up a bit...I appreciate the advice thus far, but here are some more details:

-I was linking to those two jackets to show my frustration in evaluatingtwo similarly priced jackets but not really knowing which would be warmer when u only have fill power and weight of the jacket to go on.

-Someone asked if -20 is the temps I'll see during the day when loafing around camp or at night...to be honest I'm not really sure. I just know my friends saw -17 last year in February near Saranac Lake in the Adirondacks (Northeast). I'm fine with planning for -20 during the day, it'll give me some head room just in case.

I'll possibly be sitting around a lot, not generating a lot of heat during the day around camp, no real hiking to speak of...I want to be warm. I'm not sure if the snow will be 'wet' at those temperatures and have it soak into my gear or not, that's also a concern.

I've narrowed my search to three jackets/parkas, here are my questions:

-Which would u pick?
-I read reviews of the synthetic DAS lasting many years, but down should last even longer?
-Down be a PIA to clean vs. the synthetic?

Sherpa Adventure Gear Men's Khumbuche Down Jacket
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___75113

Pros:
Love the green color
cheaper than others

Cons:
Not as warm as Patagonia Down Parka (750 fill vs. 800 fill)
Perhaps not as warm as Patagonia Down Parka?
It's a jacket, not a parka, less coverage?
Don't find many reviews on it...untested?
Down sucks when wet.

# Length: 27-½”
# Weight: 22 oz.
$188 shipped

Patagonia DAS Parka
http://tinyurl.com/66mmnc

Pros:
Rave reviews
Synthetic handles wetness better

Cons:
Down Sherpa jacket or Patagonia Down Parka could be warmer?

Length 29 inches
Weight 780 g (27.5 oz)
$220 shipped

Patagonia Down Parka
http://tinyurl.com/6f5pw8

Pros:
Rave reviews
800-fill down...warmest of the three I'd assume.

Cons:
Down sucks when wet.
weighs the most.

Length: dunno, but figure it is similar to DAS Parka
Weight 868 g (30.6 oz)
$227 shipped

[GanGoHigh]

Hey Bestr, one thing you should consider besides the total weight of the jacket is the fill weight. This is especially important with down. Example: Company A sells a 16 oz jacket with 3 oz of fill, and Company B sells a 16oz jackets with 6 oz of fill. Most companies will provide fairly accurate fill info usually on the details/specs area of their product descriptions. And one could easily compare down fill amounts to synthetics once you figure out an easy weight to warmth ratio for synthetics.

[Wags]

feral bill you my friend are a lot tougher than me. i worked outside last winter on a loading dock and once the temps hit the single digits i was cold all night at work

[JAK]

Here is a cool formula for clothing inches...

inches of clothing, I = (90-Ta)/50n - Ia

90 = Ts = skin temperature in comfortable state
Ta = air temperature in degF
n = metabolic rate
Ia = air inches (reduced by wind chill)

n = 0.72 sleeping post digestion
n = 0.80 sleeping while digesting
n = 0.80 lying post digestion
n = 0.90 lying while digesting
n = 1.0 sitting = ~100 kcal/hr for 2m^2 surface area
n = 1.2 standing
n = 1.8 slow level walking 2.5 km/hr (light work)
n = 2.6 level walking 5.0 km/hr
n = 3.6 brisk level walking 6.5 km/hr
n = 4.4 walking up 5% grade at 5.5 km/hr
n = 6.8 walking up 10% grade at 5.5 km/hr

Ia = 0.2 inches in still air, 0.1 inches in 2.5 mph wind, 0.05 in 12 mph wind, 0.02 in 50 mph wind


Examples,

-30F, standing in camp, 2.5 mph wind...
I = [90-(-30)]/[50x1.2] - 0.1 inches = 1.9 inches of clothing needed

-40F, level walking at 5.0 km/hr into 15 km/hr wind...
I = [90-(-40)]/[50x2.6] - 0.05 inches = 0.95 inches of clothing needed

0F, light camp work, still air
I = [90-(0)]/[50x1.8] - 0.2 inches = 0.8 inches of clothing needed

18F, brisk level walking 6.5 km/hr
I = [90-(18)]/[50x3.6] - ~0.07 inches = 0.33 inches of clothing needed

references/assumptions:
http://dspace.ncaor.org:8080/dspace/.../article31.pdf
75% of heat loss is conductive (i.e. non-sweating 33degC skin temperature)
4 clo per inch = 6.2 tog per inch (i.e. good insulation and thin shells)
1 MET = 100kcal/hr sitting for 2 m^2 of surface area
full and consistent thickness coverage, dry feet
neutral thermal radiation

[JAK]

Something else to consider...

2.0" on 50% of body and 0.5" on 50% of body = 0.80-0.85" not 1.25"

So a 1.5" down jacket, waist length without hood, adds only 0.30-0.35" of overall thickness.
This emphasizes the importance of uniform coverage in your extreme conditions.

the math...

still air...
1/[0.5/2.2 +0.5/0.7]-0.2 = 0.86"

high winds...
1/[0.5/2 +0.5/0.5] = 0.80" (not counting bellows effect)

[mudhead]

Now maybe all this math is beyond me, but what are you trying to say?

[Bster13]

Jak- How do your formulas account for different types of insulation? .5 inches 800 fill down is different than .5 inches of Thinsulate, ya know?