What is ultralight?

[JAK]

My point that there is often alot of criticism against lightweight and ultralight backpackers regarding safety, but not so much against those who choose to go heavy. I am not saying that either should go unquestioned, but that there should be more balance. I also implied that one cause for this imbalance could be the pressure to sell, and to purchase, more gear.

While the argument too a bad turn, it is worth noting that too much gear weight does cause harm.

[Slo-go'en]

I'd say too little knowledge/experience or too much confidence would lead to more deaths than pack weight.

What suprises me is how many "don't have a clue" tender foot hikers don't die.

[JAK]

What doesn't surprise me is how difficult it is to be different.

[Slo-go'en]

While the argument too a bad turn, it is worth noting that too much gear weight does cause harm.

This is a self correcting problem. People who try to carry too much weight don't make it too far into the woods. Usually its the weekend/overnighters who carry insanely heavy packs on a 5 or 10 mile trip. See pleanty of that here in the Whites. Long Distance hikers have either done thier research before hand, wise up quickly or go home.

[Lone Wolf]

it is worth noting that too much gear weight does cause harm.

says you

[JAK]

I would agree that it is somewhat self-correcting with experience, but that it takes varying amounts time, and so the harm is still done. Some younger people persist for years, doing themselves more harm than good in the process. Older folks, especially those a bit overweight or out of shape, might simply give up to easily before learning to go lighter, and thus miss out on the benefits. The harm is done. The industry could do better, but that is not their job. Organizations such as scouting could also do much better, and it is their job. We could all do better at encouraging people to carry reasonable gear weight. Even those that promote light weight gear tend to do so to the extreme, perhaps contributing to the real problem, which is to avoid the other extreme, not the moderate middle.

[JAK]

says you

It's not about me. Please focus on the topic, and not me.

[JAK]

Why do I get the impression that I suffer personal attacks whenever I raise an issue that is against the commercial interests of outfitters and service providers. Radicalism and paranoia most likely, but it's not that radical a concept really. We need outfitters, but there is such a thing as too much gear weight, and, it does cause serious harm. We need service providers, but there is nothing wrong with being frugal either, if it helps get you down the trail without being a burden on society. Moderation and frugality are virtues. Let's be reasonable. Both frugality and minimalism are great facilitators. They allow people to hike that might otherwise be unable to, but they are also something we can all benefit from. Moderation in all things, including moderation of course.

[Egads]

You were attacked by LW for making a ridiculous claim that heavy packs can cause death w/o any basis of fact.

I am pretty sure that LW will agree outfitters will be happy so sell you as much gear as you are willing to pay for.

[Lone Wolf]

You were attacked by LW for making a ridiculous claim that heavy packs can cause death w/o any basis of fact.

attacked? nah. just ASKED him to provide proof

[JAK]

My original statement was a little over the top, but it was worth making. I don't blame LW for blasting me for it, the way it was presented, and particularly by whom, but I still think it is something worth considering. I don't think such a statement needs to be proven. It's value is that it is worth considering. It wasn't that ridiculous, if you think about it, and perhaps word it differently.

[JAK]

Think about it.

[JAK]

If you were to go about it the other way,

how would you prove that excessively light gear weight causes more death than excessively heavy gear weight? I don't know how you would prove either claim, but both do harm, and both can cause death, and have, and so both are worth considering.

Perhaps I'm just the wrong messenger.

[jonathanb23]

I propose a race...I think everyone should pack up, head out and get on trail. Whoever finishes whatever distance they want over whatever time period they want with whatever gear they want with a smile on their face wins...no need to report back here. I'll be gone hiking Oh yeah and you can label yourself self however you want. Bushwhacker...Gram Weinie...Gear Junkie...Weekend Warrior...just keep walking

[JAK]

I had a friend who was a really good sailor. When asked a question like, where do you set your outhaul, or something like that, he would always say, "In the middle." What he meant was half way between too much and too little. The ideal or optimal is not that easy to find, but it is fairly easy to approximate as half way between too extremes.

Perhaps the same could be said of pack weight, and things like food weight, clothing weight, sleeping bag loft. You wan't to have enough, and some of us want to push the limit of how much is just enough. Perhaps it is simply easier to chose that amount half way in between how much we know is too much, at least for us on that particular trip, and how much we know is too little.

[JAK]

My friend's name was Terry Neilson, but he might have gotten the original idea from Aristotle.

http://www.constitution.org/ari/ethic_02.htm#2.2

Book 2, Chapter 9
That moral virtue is a mean, then, and in what sense it is so, and that it is a mean between two vices, the one involving excess, the other deficiency, and that it is such because its character is to aim at what is intermediate in passions and in actions, has been sufficiently stated. Hence also it is no easy task to be good. For in everything it is no easy task to find the middle, e.g. to find the middle of a circle is not for every one but for him who knows; so, too, any one can get angry -- that is easy -- or give or spend money; but to do this to the right person, to the right extent, at the right time, with the right motive, and in the right way, that is not for every one, nor is it easy; wherefore goodness is both rare and laudable and noble.

Hence he who aims at the intermediate must first depart from what is the more contrary to it, as Calypso advises --

Hold the ship out beyond that surf and spray.

For of the extremes one is more erroneous, one less so; therefore, since to hit the mean is hard in the extreme, we must as a second best, as people say, take the least of the evils; and this will be done best in the way we describe. But we must consider the things towards which we ourselves also are easily carried away; for some of us tend to one thing, some to another; and this will be recognizable from the pleasure and the pain we feel. We must drag ourselves away to the contrary extreme; for we shall get into the intermediate state by drawing well away from error, as people do in straightening sticks that are bent.

Now in everything the pleasant or pleasure is most to be guarded against; for we do not judge it impartially. We ought, then, to feel towards pleasure as the elders of the people felt towards Helen, and in all circumstances repeat their saying; for if we dismiss pleasure thus we are less likely to go astray. It is by doing this, then, (to sum the matter up) that we shall best be able to hit the mean.

But this is no doubt difficult, and especially in individual cases; for or is not easy to determine both how and with whom and on what provocation and how long one should be angry; for we too sometimes praise those who fall short and call them good-tempered, but sometimes we praise those who get angry and call them manly. The man, however, who deviates little from goodness is not blamed, whether he do so in the direction of the more or of the less, but only the man who deviates more widely; for he does not fail to be noticed. But up to what point and to what extent a man must deviate before he becomes blameworthy it is not easy to determine by reasoning, any more than anything else that is perceived by the senses; such things depend on particular facts, and the decision rests with perception. So much, then, is plain, that the intermediate state is in all things to be praised, but that we must incline sometimes towards the excess, sometimes towards the deficiency; for so shall we most easily hit the mean and what is right.

[Lone Wolf]

dude, quit rambling. take the wife an kid for a walk

[JAK]

Yeah yer right. Pretty good reference to Aristotle though eh.

[Worldwide]

I just tried to carry a heavy pack and I died because of it. Thanks for not warning me! I have risen from the ashes to haunt you all forever an ever. Can my new trail name be Phoenix?

[Mags]

UL is more about a philosophy. It's a minimalist approach to backpacking. True ULers are usually extremely experienced outdoorsmen (or women) who know exactly what they need for a given outing, and bring no more, no less. It takes many hours in the outdoors to learn what, and how much of it, you need to be comfortable.

That's about as a good a summary I've ever seen. As I said in the thread I linked earlier, I tend to prefer my style of hiking "minimalist" when feeling polite, dirtbagging when a bit more crude.