Help with Snake ID

[Tennessee Viking]

I am not great in herpetology, are these two specimens black racers/rat snakes?

[Ape 99]

The 1st definitely is, the 2nd is hard to see, but appears to be a dark varient of garter snake, also very thick bodied, may be pregnant (garters give live birth).

[shuffle]

THe first one is a black rat snake and the second is a garter of the dark variety.

[senache]

Good thing snakes don't get poison ivy, eh?

[trailmomma4]

The only thing I know about about snakes comes from the rhyme my son (Big Red) learned in Boy Scouts:
Red on yellow, kill a fellow,
Red on black, friend of Jack

[senache]

That is to identify a coral snake - as opposed to a Scarlet Kingsnake.

[HippieHiker]

the first is a rat snake....but i think the second is a corn snake. i had one growing up and the mouth looks dead on. if you found this in georgie it most likely is a corn.

[Tennessee Viking]

Found them on Pond Mtn leading up to Pond Flats from Laurel Fork Gorge.

[Wise Old Owl]

Good thing snakes don't get poison ivy, eh?

Yea I saw that too, I didn't want to say anything in case it was his yard!

I agree with Scarlet about the snakes.

[emerald]

I called this thread to the attention of Herpn.

[Herpn]

At first glance I thought this was a Black Rat it used to be Elaphe obsoleta but the name in now Eastern Black Rat and is Pantherophis alleghaniensis . BUT the closer I look at it, mostly at the face it looks like a Black Racer or a North American Racer (same thing), Coluber constrictor. If you look at the head the racer has larger more rounded eyes than the Rat. The dead giveaway is the scales a racer has smooth scales and a Rat has Keeled scales, the scales have a keel in them, a raised line in the center or each scale. This photo is unfortunately a bit blurey or not close enough for me to tell. Also if you flip them over the rat would have black and white checkered board pattern going down. The racer has more of a sinister face. Also the Rat is more majestic in is movements where the racer is FAST that's were it get its name. So I am going with racer. If the picture was just a bit more clear it would make for an easier ID.

The second snake is in fact a melanistic (dark phase) of an Eastern Garter or a Common Garter, Thamnophis sirtalis.

I have never personally seen one this dark. Cool pics thanks for sharing. There is some proof now with all the molecular biology research going on that Garters actually poses some venom, nothing that could harm a person though.


Hope this helps, I will take another look at this black snake pic and try to blow it up.

Thanks,
Chuck Annicelli
www.ConnecticutHerpetologist.com

[Herpn]

At first glance I thought this was a Black Rat it used to be Elaphe obsoleta but the name in now Eastern Black Rat and is Pantherophis alleghaniensis . BUT the closer I look at it, mostly at the face it looks like a Black Racer or a North American Racer (same thing), Coluber constrictor. If you look at the head the racer has larger more rounded eyes than the Rat. The dead giveaway is the scales a racer has smooth scales and a Rat has Keeled scales, the scales have a keel in them, a raised line in the center or each scale. This photo is unfortunately a bit blurey or not close enough for me to tell. Also if you flip them over the rat would have black and white checkered board pattern going down. The racer has more of a sinister face. Also the Rat is more majestic in is movements where the racer is FAST that's were it get its name. So I am going with racer. If the picture was just a bit more clear it would make for an easier ID.

The second snake is in fact a melanistic (dark phase) of an Eastern Garter or a Common Garter, Thamnophis sirtalis.

I have never personally seen one this dark. Cool pics thanks for sharing. There is some proof now with all the molecular biology research going on that Garters actually poses some venom, nothing that could harm a person though.


Hope this helps, I will take another look at this black snake pic and try to blow it up.

Thanks,
Chuck Annicelli
www.ConnecticutHerpetologist.com

[Herpn]

Weird not sure how I reposted that same response again 9 minutes later? I was going to Thank Shades Of Gray for calling my attention to this. If anyone has any snake or Herpetology questions feel free to aks anytime. PM's are probalby the best since I am only on this forum every now and then...

Thanks again,
Chuck

[emerald]

It's great to have a resource like you to help settle these ID questions and to call to our attention details we might overlook.

[snowhoe]

I have a masters degree in snake therory and snake behavier and both are bushmasters.

[emerald]

Click on the common names black racer and garter snake for more images and information from Snakes of Georgia and South Carolina.

[Jack Tarlin]

Just wanted to say that it is posts like Herpns (#12, above) that really make this website useful.

I hope that Herpns considers a full-length article for Whiteblaze, with photos, that provides detailed information on the snakes one is likely to encounter on the A.T. This would serve to inform the hikers (who are frequently overly and needlessly scared) and would help the snakes as well, who are frequently the victims of ignorant hikers.

[emerald]

Jack, Herpn's a busy man. A herpetologist by profession, he's out and about herping (herpn), i.e. seeking, studying and reporting back on herps to his clients.

[sliderule]

I have a masters degree in snake therory and snake behavier and both are bushmasters.

And a Ph.D. in grammar and spelling, no doubt!!!

[Herpn]

Jack Tarlin, thanks. Sorry for the late reply I was never subscribed to this thread. Maybe I could do something like that but it would take some time. I can say this for now, stay a safe distance from all snakes you encounter and you will be fine. It would not take much time to just be able to ID the venomous ones, Cottonmouth, Copperhead, and Rattlesnakes. All pit vipers, they are pretty easy to recognize after you have studied pictures of them.