Pemi Wilderness

[celt]

Sounds like you had a fun mix of USFS car-camping, established backcountry sites and less established backcountry sites. A nearly complete cross section of camping in the WMNF.

Tin Man, did the 13 Falls or Liberty Springs Caretaker tell you about the AMC's group notification system for their backcountry sites (or did you know about it before)? Its definitly a good program to mention in this thread for other organizations thinking of taking groups to a caretaker site in the White Mountains. It can help both the caretaker and group if the AMC knows a group is coming.

http://www.outdoors.org/lodging/camp...tification.cfm

P.S. Please tell me you went cliff diving at 13 Falls (or at least swimming)

[Tin Man]

No, we did not go cliff diving at 13 falls. The air temperature was cool and the water was cold. The caretaker told us about all the great spots where he goes after doing trail work or composting. He estimated the water at 50 degrees. Our feet did enjoy the brief soaking though.

Yes, I used the group notification system prior to going. Someone had mentioned it earlier and I thought it was a good idea to see what feedback they might have for us on availabilty. Basically, they told me that Garfield and Liberty Springs were busy the nights I had sent them and to plan accordingly, which I took to mean get there early or plan to move on. The caretakers took good care of us at 13 falls and liberty - nice folks - and mentioned that they were happy we had informed them we were coming. I also notified them of our intention to stay at Garfield campsite, but I had stayed at the Garfield Pond campsite last year and thought that would be a great alternative to the campsite for a variety of reasons and we did end up doing the pond instead of the campsite.

side story: The funny thing is I think someone ratted us out (so to speak) because as soon as we got to Garfield summit, sobo past the AMC campsite, the caretaker showed up and started going after me regarding my plans to stay at the pond. Finally, he did admit there was a legal campsite and since my group was no more than 10, told me it was legal for me to stay there. After deciding we were okay, he offered to give my group a LNT lecture. I told him we were Scouts, are informed on LNT, always police our campsite, cite the Scout Outdoor Code at all our meetings, and I reminded them when I saw them doing anything not within the code. Apparently, he wasn't impressed so I asked him how long the readers digest version would take. He said he could get it down to 20 minutes. After turning my head to see where the scouts were, making a show of asking the scout master for the time and rolling my eyes, I told him normally I would say yes, but we were running out of daylight to get off the peak, setup camp and cook dinner, some other time maybe. Finally, he left and we went on to camp.

[celt]

The sites near Garfield Pond have always been a gray area for management for both the USFS, whos official jurisdiction the land is on, and the Garfield Caretaker, who is asked to look after the trail along that area. There is no offical policy against camping there, only the suggested guidelines for non Forest Protection Areas: camp far away from water and out of site of the trail. The impacted area at Garfield Pond is large and some spots are near the trail (and the Pond) and others are not.

I was the Garfield Caretaker in 2005 and some of my supervisors felt stronger about limiting use in what we called bootleg (nothing stealthy about the G.P. campsites really) campsites than others. I was asked my opinion and allowed to follow my ideas within reason. I looked after many existing bootleg sites along Garfield Ridge much as I would the Garfield Campsite. If their use caused no further expansion of the impacted area or trashing of the existing area I needed to do nothing. I would clean up after less careless campers to leave a good impression for all. Most of the small sites had no existing fire ring so I'd eliminate any temporary ones to encourage low impact fire building. Only the Pond had a well extablished ring that was tolerated but kept trash free and with no expansion. Some of the Pond sites did come rather close to the trail so I did attempt to revegatate those with the thought that the sites farther away should suffice. The idea behind allowing some of the better bootleg sites to exist was that if they were closed off others might pop up in more fragile and pristine areas. The goal of trail and campsite maintenance was to protect the wildness of the forest immediately surrounding the trail (what we called "the resouce")

If hikers/campers asked me about alternatives to staying in the Garfield Shelter or the tent platforms for $8 I'd be open to the possibility of suggesting one of the "bootleg" sites. I never forcefully suggested a LNT lecture but I sometimes would engage in a general discussion about low impact camping to gauge the character of the camper in a friendly way. Mostly they were experienced backcountry campers who desired more solitude than Garfield campsite but were unsure about where to camp along the ridge. I admit if a group had asked me about the pond sites I'd secretly wish they'd just stay at Garfield Campsite. Even if it was busy and they'd have to use the in-site overflow (but if you'd notified I'd've had a platform set aside). The greater impact of a group is best handled by a well built campsite. But only a larger bootleg site would handle a group without further impact so the pond wasn't the worst place to go. Its a nice spot too.

I'm glad you, as a Scout Leader, stood up for the BSA's belief in low impact camping. In the near past Scouts did seem to hold on to the old fashioned backcountry camping ideas but now most Scout groups have changed and its some caretakers who are holding on to the old fashioned notion that all Scouts are high impact. Hopefully that too will change.

[Tin Man]

Celt, thanks for being a sensible caretaker. To give you a little more detail on Garfield, the on-the-pond sites are closed. They were getting over used and abused and they took more permament steps to close that area by moving bolders and downed trees to make it near impossible to camp close to the pond. After the caretaker informed me of this, I said I was aware from previous experience, that I had no plans to camp beside the pond and that I was intending to use the spot on the opposite side of the trail about 200 feet away from the pond and trail. That was when he conceded it was okay. I was surprised to see an established, small fire ring when we arrived and we did have a small fire. Last year, a different caretaker told me they were tearing down informal fire rings about once a week at this very spot. Perhaps they decided a small one would be easier to deal with. The spot is very nice and our tenters appreciated the soft pine needle ground.

I used my new hammock on this trip and became a convert...and I think the 13 falls caretaker is going to be a hammocker soon also.

[Blissful]

Nice hike, Tin Man. Makes me want to go next year and do that route.

[Tin Man]

Nice hike, Tin Man. Makes me want to go next year and do that route.

I thought it was a great route for people who are not in White Mtn. shape. Long, flat hike into 13 falls, gradual ascent up to Galehead, up and down the ridgeline, then up Lafayette from a higher start than most trailheads, down via the Osseo trail was relatively gentle as well. It was a great semi-pemi-loop hike.

We crossed five 4,000 footers and two 5,000 footers, saw lots of birds, streams, waterfalls and got in a variety of camping experiences. The boys will certainly always remember the trip.

[celt]

Thinking about Garfield while contributing to this thread and seeing a recent picture of Garfield Shelter posted by Homer & Marje inspired me to head up to Garfield at 4:00 pm on Friday to spend the night. Thanks for the inspiration. It was an enjoyable evening with heavy rains and winds overnight.

The caretaker seemed like a friendly and enthusiastic young guy. I didn't bring up the pond but he still mentioned working on rehabilitating some of the bootleg sites all around the shores. I think its become more of a priority this year.

[Homer&Marje]

Thinking about Garfield while contributing to this thread and seeing a recent picture of Garfield Shelter posted by Homer & Marje inspired me to head up to Garfield at 4:00 pm on Friday to spend the night. Thanks for the inspiration. It was an enjoyable evening with heavy rains and winds overnight.

The caretaker seemed like a friendly and enthusiastic young guy. I didn't bring up the pond but he still mentioned working on rehabilitating some of the bootleg sites all around the shores. I think its become more of a priority this year.

Caretaker was Matt...very enthusiastic kid for sure, and really knew the area. Took some time to explain to me the regrowth patterns of trees in front of his caretaker tent and across the valley on the ridge. The dead and regrowing trees make colored swirls through the ridge and it's really cool at the right time of day, which we were there for. Said it only happens 2 places in the world, at those locations in the Whites and on Mt. Fuji in Japan.

[Homer&Marje]

Tin Man did you see the 3 or 4 stealth sites on the way down from Little haystack to Liberty Springs? Some of those were very decent, except I disagree with the use of fire's at almost all of them.

I enjoy a fire as much as anyone in the woods...but not where it's not allowed. Some decent sites, couple of them for just 1 two person tent, 1 or two sites could fit up to 3 though...

[Tin Man]

Caretaker was Matt...very enthusiastic kid for sure, and really knew the area. Took some time to explain to me the regrowth patterns of trees in front of his caretaker tent and across the valley on the ridge. The dead and regrowing trees make colored swirls through the ridge and it's really cool at the right time of day, which we were there for. Said it only happens 2 places in the world, at those locations in the Whites and on Mt. Fuji in Japan.

Was he wearing that gay wool hat with bear's ears?

[Tin Man]

Tin Man did you see the 3 or 4 stealth sites on the way down from Little haystack to Liberty Springs? Some of those were very decent, except I disagree with the use of fire's at almost all of them.

I enjoy a fire as much as anyone in the woods...but not where it's not allowed. Some decent sites, couple of them for just 1 two person tent, 1 or two sites could fit up to 3 though...

Yeah, I saw them. No water nearby that I saw though. There are plenty of stealth sites throughout the Whites.

[celt]

Caretaker was Matt...very enthusiastic kid for sure, and really knew the area. Took some time to explain to me the regrowth patterns of trees in front of his caretaker tent and across the valley on the ridge. The dead and regrowing trees make colored swirls through the ridge and it's really cool at the right time of day, which we were there for. Said it only happens 2 places in the world, at those locations in the Whites and on Mt. Fuji in Japan.

The succession of dead and living trees common in the Whites is a "fir wave". Mature trees produce tens of thousands of viable saplings per acre, so many that as the sapling grow they cut off the mature tree's food & water source. The mature trees die standing. (and often blow down in groups) The strongest saplings mature and produce the next generation. The process moves slowly through the forest not unlike a wave through water.

Garfield is really an amazing location for many reasons, the fir waves visible on North Twin being just one.

[Tin Man]

The succession of dead and living trees common in the Whites is a "fir wave". Mature trees produce tens of thousands of viable saplings per acre, so many that as the sapling grow they cut off the mature tree's food & water source. The mature trees die standing. (and often blow down in groups) The strongest saplings mature and produce the next generation. The process moves slowly through the forest not unlike a wave through water.

Garfield is really an amazing location for many reasons, the fir waves visible on North Twin being just one.

Thanks again Celt. One of the scouts asked me what was going on. I was guessing storms, but told him I didn't know for sure.

[Homer&Marje]

Was he wearing that gay wool hat with bear's ears?

Yes...but....if you spent as much time on the mountain as he does you'd go a little crazy too Sunglasses were better

[Tin Man]

Yes...but....if you spent as much time on the mountain as he does you'd go a little crazy too Sunglasses were better

Did you meet Garret at 13 Falls?... he is a floating caretaker and interesting guy. And much more practical on LNT and stealthing than your bud Matt.

[Homer&Marje]

Did you meet Garret at 13 Falls?... he is a floating caretaker and interesting guy. And much more practical on LNT and stealthing than your bud Matt.

Met him, seemed like he was in a bad mood and not much for conversation...from what I gathered there was a MAJOR composting issue down at 13 falls that he was still dealing with....would turn anyone's day bad

Nice guy all in all, just did not get much time to talk to him

[Homer&Marje]

Found my picture of the Fir Waves...Not the best shot but this is the view from the Garfield caretaker Tent

[Tin Man]

Found my picture of the Fir Waves...Not the best shot but this is the view from the Garfield caretaker Tent

And what were you doing in Matt's tent, pray tell?

[Homer&Marje]

And what were you doing in Matt's tent, pray tell?

Took care of that mostly on my own. Actually I stopped there for a second as the wife and the little brother in law were catching up to me. As they showed up it happened to be a very good time to view it...hence why I didn't get that good of a picture...had I not been in a rush to get a start on my late evening I would have stayed, learned all about it and taken numerous shots.

Sunrise is a great time to hang out on the bench at Garfield though.

[Tinker]

oh, now i'm skeered. i can read and follow rules, 200' is 200' etc. like i said my goal is to stay at the campsites. and if they are full, the caretakers can suggest an alternative or i know how to find my own. no bigee.

Scout leaders should follow rules or they're teaching their scouts the wrong stuff. Thanks for clearing that up.