Latest date to safely enter the Whites SOBO

[clured]

Hi all,

A quick question for all your Mainers (or whoever knows more about Maine than I do). When I hiked in 2007, I went through the Whites in 5 days - it was high summer, and I was in great shape and really trucking it. So, to be safe, lets say that the Whites are a 5-8 day traverse. So, my question:

What are the latest 5-8 days in the year that I could safely go through the Whites? What counts as safe? I have ~3700 miles of hiking experience, including experience with low-altitude mountaineering. I'm very comfortable with crampons/iceaxe, camping in the snow, etc. But, at the same time, I've very risk averse in the woods and I have a high level of respect for the Whites. How late could I safely go through Gorham? I'm willing to be cold/inconvenienced, but I have no interest in risking anything serious.

Just got an crazy itch to get out on the trail, and I am seriously thinking about doing a fast-n-dirty SOBO in the autumn. Trying to see if things could work with my schedule.

[clured]

eeeer, New Hampshire-ites!? Doh, why did I think the Whites are in Maine??

[TJ aka Teej]

I advise being over Mt Washington by October 1st.

[clured]

Thanks, TJ. Any traction equipment necessary? Is there usually snow on the ground at that point?

Also, how cold will it get up there? I'd be willing to shell out for a 10-15 deg. bag if I had to, but I'd rather stick with my WM ultralight (20), and just buff it up with lots of layers underneath.

[fiddlehead]

When we did our SOBO in 2001/2002, of course we worried about going through the presidentials and the weather we would encounter.
Turns out we lucked out and it was beautiful.
No people, good weather (light flurries) winds of only about 30-40 mph over Mt. Wash.

We did it on Nov 1st.

Sometimes the weather on Mt. Washington is good. I think it is never predictable.
So, your question is not possible to answer as there is no safe time and there is no "definitely not" time.

You can read about that trip SOBO here.

[Slo-go'en]

Conditions above tree line are highly variable any time of year, but by mid-September it is starting to get real iffy. That is when the first significant snow event is likely to happen. By mid October, more often than not, snow cover becomes consistant. Every year is different, so there is no telling what will happen until it does.

[Snowleopard]

The Mt. Washington Observatory has weather archives online. It's unpredictable. October in New England is often beautiful and stable weather, but all bets are off above treeline.
http://www.mountwashington.org/weather/summit.php

[psyculman]

This temperature average log link tells some of the story. It can be good up there, and it can be bad.

http://weather.msn.com/daily_average...ragesd&weai=10

[clured]

Guys,

Thanks a bunch for all the great info. After talking with my girlfriend and thinking about how I want to spend the next couple of months, I'm now thinking that it might be better to do a very early-season hike in 2010 (I just graduated from college - it's weird/awesome for 9 more months of the year to suddenly turn into potential hiking trips..!). But, because of how I'm planning to spend the "middle" 6 months of next year, I would have to be on a faster schedule than most early-season people.

So, let me pose a reciprocal to the first question - what is the EARLIEST date that I could safely enter the Whites in the Spring? Assume, say, a January 1 start - what's the weather like in the Whites at the second half of March?

My guess is still pretty fierce? If so, would it be possible to take alternates around Franconia/Presidentials to keep under the treeline? Obviously I would hate to miss arguably the two best pieces of the whole AT, but - I've already seen them, and it seems dumb to pass up a second thru on account of, what, like 20 miles of ridgewalking?

Thanks for the advice,
-Dave

[High Life]

errr call me stupid , but how about checking the weather right before you leave
you'll know what to expect and what to bring .. here try this www.mountwashington.org

[CrumbSnatcher]

i'd think even VT. and MAINE. would be a mess going thru at that time. goodluck

[Snowleopard]

March in the Whites would be winter conditions:

March 31, 2009, Mt. Washington
Maximum Temperature: 35°F
Minimum Temperature: 17°F
Peak Wind Gust: NW 84 mph
Ground Conditions: 11"+ ice, snow, rime
(probably much deeper snow at lower altitudes.

For AMC trips you'd be required to carry full winter gear, including winter boots, crampons, snowshoes. http://www.outdoors.org/publications...gear.cfm#Listc

Pretty much, CT, MA, VT, NH, and ME would be winter. For example, the record minimum temperature in CT is -32F on Feb. 16, 1943. NW CT thru VT you could be seeing night time temps well below zero on cold nights. You would expect to see a blizzard or three crossing New England. So, it's not impossible but would be a challenge.

Don't forget that trails in VT are closed for mud season, April 15 to memorial day.

I'd say find another plan or be prepared for an epic trip.

[clured]

Yes, Snowleopard, I've been doing more research and it looks like it would indeed by quite a challenge (not to mention a significant buy-in for all the extra gear/clothing that I would need). At the same time, though, I'm in the mood for a challenge - I'm missing this whole hiking season because of an injury that is now rapidly clearing up, and, hey, how many times are you 22 years old? I'm a strong hiker, and I do have significant experience with alpine environments.

I'm going to have to do a LOT of more research before I decide on this. As I said, I take this stuff very, very seriously, and I have no intention of getting killed up there. At the same time, it doesn't look totally impossible. I think part of my interest in the hike is that it would be a deviation from the normal thru-hiking templates - everyone goes high summer nobo or late season sobo, but it seems like the trail would become a whole new trail in the winter.

Any ideas about taking alternate routes around Franconia / Presidentials? It seems to me that the scenario that you REALLY want to avoid is getting caught in a storm above treeline (I spent about 3 hours reading old accident reports in Mitzvah Falls hut in '07..). I generally like to stick to the whiteblazes, but I'd have no problem scooting around the high ridges for peace of mind.

-D

[Snowleopard]

It's doable. After all, people have walked across Antarctica. How hard it is depends on how late in the season you get to the north.
BUT:
You really need to have people hiking with you even if you're confident alone. I just think it's asking for accidents to hike that far in winter alone. Maybe down south it would be OK, but depending on the time of year and how bad a winter, PA or NJ or NY and north could be bad.
Maybe if you're don't get into the north till April it would be easier.
In a bad winter you could have to use snowshoes constantly from CT north (and part of the time further south).
In a mild winter, if you're willing to take a lot of town zeros in bad weather, I think going through VT would be feasible (not easy).

"hey, how many times are you 22 years old? I'm a strong hiker, and I do have significant experience with alpine environments." How about different trails, parts of AT + Benton MacKaye trail http://www.bmta.org/ or the southern part of this fellow's trip http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46765

"Any ideas about taking alternate routes around Franconia / Presidentials?" Others may be more familiar with this.

Good luck!

[El Toro '94]

Let me get this straight, you're planning on starting a southbound thru in January? I would advise against it.
The Whites and Big K aren't the only places above treeline up north. You've got Whitecap. part of Chairback and Barren in the 100 mile wilderness, the tops of Moxie Bald, Pleasant Pond, and the Bigelows, Saddleback, the Baldpates, and the Goose Eye peaks all have substantial portions above treeline with no easy way around, not to mention having to snowshoe a couple hundred miles at least. Nothing like doing multiple sub 5 mile days, it may take you 3 or 4 months just to get to the Whites if starting in Maine. Are you willing to carry 2 weeks of food or maybe more at a time? How about a 50-60+ pound pack while postholing thru 4 feet of snow for days or weeks at at a time? Plus what Shelterleopard said about the trails in Vermont being closed during mud and stick season.
Don't forget all of the river and stream crossings in Maine, most, if not all are unbridged, which means fording. Are you prepared to wade both branches of the Pleasant, the Piscatiquis, and the Carrabassett rivers, much less the Kennebec in late January/early Febuary?
What about Mahoosuc Notch, buried under a 10 or 15 feet of snow? That would be fun.
Oh yeah, about the Whites, still skiing in Tuckerman in May and sometimes June.
Don't get me wrong, Maine in winter is a beautiful and magical place, but you need to think seriously about what a winter thru-hike starting in Maine in January really means. It's not just cold and stormy weather, it's all of the effects of what cold and stormy weather has on the hiking geography as well as how it affects you. Good luck whichever way you decide.

[El Toro '94]

Sorry, I meant SnowLeopard, not shelter leopard.

[Snowleopard]

Am I confused? I assumed clured's latest plan was a NOBO starting around Jan. 1.
A SOBO start of Jan. 1 would be interesting. I think for Katahdin in winter Baxter wants to see your climbing resume (and it better be significant).
I think that El Toro says pretty much applies to April, except not many -40 nights.

So, El Toro, did you do some of this and it made you flee to as far south as you could go?

[El Toro '94]

SnowLeopard,
I did a little winter hiking in the Whites and Daks when I lived in NYC, it didn't make me flee down here though. I did give up snowshoeing after postholing for 2 days in the Carter-Moriah range one January weekend-too much work and too much like work as well. Fell in love with skiing so much I almost gave up golf for it. I love winter in the mountains and miss it greatly.
Will be doing a winter SOBO section from Greylock>Springer via the Tuscarora and BMT as well as the AT starting Nov. 1, then a NOBO to big K whenever I get to Georgia.
If clured is going NOBO starting in January, that's different, I just assumed he was going SOBO from his earlier post. If he gets to Vermont after Memorial Day going north, the Whites shouldn't be too much of a problem, weather permitting. It will be muddy and buggy though.
I know from the GMC website that they close hiking trails in mudnstick season, does that mean the AT section of the LT also? or just the northern part?

[CrumbSnatcher]

sounds like he was talking about a 3 month long nobo starting in january. mentioned the whites second half of march!