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  1. #21

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    I don't think anyone has any rights to expections at a shelter except a spot if there is room. That being said as a trip leader I always planned trips around camping spots with plenty of tent room and preferably during the week to avoid crowds. I would never allow a participant from a group I was leading to sleep in a shelter unless there were some type of emergency. We would use the communal fire and ammenities and socialize but always retire to tents and a dining tarp. To plan a group trip any other way is inconsiderate though not against any rules.

  2. #22
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    I ran into maybe a dozen or more college groups hiking the AT. Most were about 20 or more people. Like any large group they can take over a campsite or shelter. I usually just Yogi some food from them and move on. There's plenty of places to camp along the trail.
    "Chainsaw" GA-ME 2011

  3. #23
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    I've run into Boy Scouts twice this year. Once at the Rock Spring Hut in SNP and once at the Hemlocks lean-to in MA. In both cases the boys camped in clusters leaving the shelters and most of the camping area open to other hikers.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by TakeABreak View Post
    I agree these large groups are not only obnoxious but shelter hop.
    Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Church Groups, College Orientation Groups are all known to do this.

    But the worst offenders are the AT thru hikers; imagine pulling into Imp Shelter on the Carter-Moriah Range and finding it overrun with thru hikers.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by kentucky View Post
    They have always said first come first serve,but I was told by all the ridgerunners that thrue hikers and distance hikers have first dibs and common sense would tell you thats the way it should be!
    No, common sense would tell you that thru hikers do NOT have first dibs.

  6. #26
    Registered User kayak karl's Avatar
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    even if the group is around the shelter i move on. crowds are the main reason i hike off season
    I'm so confused, I'm not sure if I lost my horse or found a rope.

  7. #27
    Registered User Nutbrown's Avatar
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    can we just be happy more younguns are being introduced to the 'wilderness'? See a group, don't like it? Move on and quit bitchin.

  8. #28
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    The AT (and while we're at it, the World) was not created solely for thrubees.
    I'm not really a hiker, I just play one on White Blaze.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutbrown View Post
    can we just be happy more younguns are being introduced to the 'wilderness'? See a group, don't like it? Move on and quit bitchin.
    +1 Any time I start to get annoyed by the presence of youth groups on the trail, I just remind myself that I used to be one of those kids in the youth group and that its because of groups like those that I learned to love the outdoors. FWIW I've overnighted next to a lot of scout/summer camp/college groups, i often see a lot of kids being kids and making newbie mistakes, but have never met a group that was badly behaved.
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  10. #30
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    As someone who plans hikes for a group that has varied from 3 to 12, I can tell you it is very hard to plan a trip without using the shelters.
    (For the record, the one time that 12 of us deployed for our hike, we split the group into two groups of 6 and hiked in opposite directions).
    I have a lose association of friends that hike, and when planning a hike we put the word out and don't usually know for sure until a few
    days beforehand who is actually going to make it.

    Ideally, I would prefer to hike with a group of 4 or 5. But I'll say straight up, if you say it is not courteous to show up at a shelter with 7 or 8
    people, I'd much rather be uncourteous in that way than to look at a group of 8 friends and pick two of them to tell they can't come because
    of group size. Some will think that I should put the word out and say that we are only taking X hikers and only allow the first X that commit
    to join the hike. The problem with that is that grown men with families and responsibilities change plans all the time. There have been some hikes
    that 2 weeks before looked like there will be 11 people, but by the hike date have dwindled down to 4. If you set the group max at 8, you might exclude several people that won't to hike, and then when all is said and done you only have 2 people that actually hike. It's one thing to fly "stand-by". No one is going to hike "stand-by".

    Some might suggest we camp along the trail away from shelters. Logistically it is easy to find a camp spot for 2 people, but nearly impossible to plan ahead for a camp spot for 8 people. Even the camp sites labeled on the trail maps typically aren't clear on how many can actually camp there. Only the shelters are largely reliable in having enough places for tents, and even that is not guaranteed. We could just hike until we find a camp spot. But it is not unusual to hike a couple of miles without seeing a good tent spot adequate for 2 people. If you're looking for a tent spot for 8 people, you may have to hike 6 or 7 miles further than you planned. For someone that doesn't hike often, targeting a hike for 10 miles, but expecting everyone to be ready to go 17 miles if necessary for camping is not doable. When you're hiking with 6 or more hikers that don't have trail legs, you pretty much have to know ahead of time where you're sleeping.

    Finally, if we do reach a 6 person shelter with 7 or 8 people, why would someone in a group of 2 have priority for the shelter over people in our group? I see no reason that first come first served would not apply even if one group fills the shelter. Although I totally agree that groups more than 10 really need to split up, unless they've done excellent recon and know that the shelters or campsites they're stopping at have a much larger capacity than their group contains.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyPaper View Post
    Finally, if we do reach a 6 person shelter with 7 or 8 people, why would someone in a group of 2 have priority for the shelter over people in our group? I see no reason that first come first served would not apply even if one group fills the shelter. Although I totally agree that groups more than 10 really need to split up, unless they've done excellent recon and know that the shelters or campsites they're stopping at have a much larger capacity than their group contains.
    So, you show up to a 6 person shelter with 7 or 8 people and there are already 3 or 4 set up there. What do you do now? Oh and it's raining. Or, you show up with your group and there is already not one, but two camp groups set up in and around the shelter. I've seen it happen.

    Groups should NEVER exceed 10, including leaders and even that number is often too big, especially during prime hiking season in popular areas. Should you limit the sign up for your hikes to 9 others max? Yes. If only 3 show up, that's even better.
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  12. #32

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    Groups have just as much right to the shelters as an individual. Best option is to avoid the shelters. I often stopped at them for a snack/rest breaks during my thru but I never once slept in one or camped near them.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    So, you show up to a 6 person shelter with 7 or 8 people and there are already 3 or 4 set up there. What do you do now? Oh and it's raining. Or, you show up with your group and there is already not one, but two camp groups set up in and around the shelter. I've seen it happen.
    As for everyone, first come first served and we'll be as prepared as anyone else to deal with a full shelter and/or rain. As with everything, it's a matter of statistics. Even if there are just two of us, we still have a chance of coming to a crowded shelter. I don't see how this relates to the group size discussion other than it makes the problem a little more likely to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slo-go'en View Post
    Groups should NEVER exceed 10, including leaders and even that number is often too big, especially during prime hiking season in popular areas. Should you limit the sign up for your hikes to 9 others max? Yes. If only 3 show up, that's even better.
    Not if some of my best friends who's been on most previous doesn't make the cut, then makes other plans before the hike date. Then he misses a hike where we had plenty of space. I can't imagine living in a world where one would be happier to have excluded good friends who were eager to hike and available to hike (and the group was small enough to accommodate). While 3-5 is an ideal group size, there are always trade offs and often it's better to take a few more hikers. Plus, don't forget I said the one time we had 12 hikers we split into two groups of 6. I'd rather deal with slight larger groups (e.g. 7 or 8) or splitting groups of 12 than to pick out a close friend and tell him he can't hike with us because we're full.

    Furthermore, we do try to avoid the thru-hiker population bulge as it moves up the trail.

  14. #34
    A proper quick, brave, steady, ready gentleman! ocourse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutbrown View Post
    can we just be happy more younguns are being introduced to the 'wilderness'? See a group, don't like it? Move on and quit bitchin.
    Right! Plus, shelters are only good for topping off your water supply and to have lunch out of the rain.
    I've learned....
    That a smile is an inexpensive way to improve your looks.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Tarlin View Post
    There will always be folks who are either unaware, or who simply don't care about shelter "etiquette." I.e., there will always be folks who travel in large groups, who are noisy, who take up too much space, who arrive late, leave early, are generally pains in the ass.

    There's a simple remedy for this. Don't stay in shelters, or don't even PLAN on staying in them unless you absolutely have to. However, if you choose to do so, be aware that in deciding to spend the night in communal "shared" space, you are inevitably going to "share" with people who might not be ideal companions. Don't be surprised, and don't complain, if they don't live up to your standards or expectations, and don't be surprised if their behavior doesn't conform to your perception of proper "shelter etiquette."

    Keep in mind:

    *It's always first-come, first served.
    *It's not cool to "hold" spots for people who may or may not be arriving later.
    *Thru-hikers aren't inherently entitled to shelter space; shelters neither
    discrimainate nor do they reward. It's first-come, first served. A group
    of fat weekenders is just as entitled to be there as you are.
    *If you're being Joe Cool Ultralight, and have decided to dispense with tent,
    tarp, or bivy, this does NOT automatically entitle you to shelter space, so
    don't expect others to vacate their space for you. If you make a voluntary
    decision not to carry equipment that other folks think is vital gear, well
    that's YOUR choice. Live with it. If there's room in the shelter, folks will
    most likely accomodate you. Otherwise suck it up and get wet. Next time,
    bring a tent and don't blame other folks for YOUR mistakes.
    *If you snore, arrive late, leave super early in the morning, make a lot of
    noise, get up frequently in the night, etc., you should probably be
    considerate to others and stay in a tent. Likewise, if this sorta behavior
    bothers you, then YOU should stay in a tent.
    *In short, people aren't perfect. If you decide to stay in a group facility,
    then be aware that not everyone might conform to your standards of
    behavior; be aware also, that not everyone is aware of what constitutes
    appropriate shelter behavior. If it's a group that's making the problem,
    consider tactfully and privately discussing the matter with the group's
    leaders. But always, the simplest way to avoid the myriad problems
    associated with overnighting in a shelter is simply to overnight somewhere
    else.

    Well said.... no one is intitled

  16. #36
    Registered User canoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kentucky View Post
    they have always said first come first serve,but i was told by all the ridgerunners that thrue hikers and distance hikers have first dibs and commonsense would tell you thats the way it should be! I have been at many shelters and generally most groups will give the shelters up but naturally some people think they own it all especially with more numbers although they usually are weekend hikers or out for a week.:d kentucky
    ...lol....

  17. #37
    Registered User Papa D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alligator View Post
    First some preliminaries. I don't stay in shelters unless I'm the only one there, so I am always prepared with personal shelter. I either camp at a tent spot or continue on if no space is available. I prefer an out of the way place where I can stay up late without disturbing other hikers and do anything of the following : read, have a fire, drink whiskey or tequila, smoke cigarettes, kabitz, or play cards. I generally have a good idea what the local hiker traffic will be like, depending on the time of year. And, I am always ready for the curveball of some group being at the shelter. I carry enough water capacity to camel up and head out.

    But, I do get irritated by groups larger then 12. I'm willing to stretch the ten so that ten kids and two adults can travel together. Limiting group size is part of ethical use of the trail. I feel that exceeding the 10 (12) person limit is just as egregious as littering or carving up trees. I am especially perturbed when the group is made up of young people. Group leaders should be entirely aware of the ten person limit. To break the limit with young hikers perpetuates a problem and teaches bad habits.

    What to do about it? Well first, suck it up, save the negativity, and move on. You will not change anyone's behavior by coming across as an Ahole. Besides, even 15 girl scouts can kick the bejesus out of a lone hiker. The group is not going to move either and who wants to stay there anyway? I see two options. One, politely talk to the group leaders about LNT. If you are armed with some facts about group impacts, and are polite, "Hey maybe you were unware but large groups impact the area by ....blah blah blah." Or two, find out the name of the group. All groups have hierarchies. Write a couple of letters/make a couple of phone calls to the higher-ups. Explain about group size limits and hopefully change some behaviors.

    Or you could vandalize their bus at the trailhead . Just kidding .
    this pretty much sums up everything I was going to say - - the problem that if you are the guilty party, you usually feel like you are doing nothing wrong - - I keep my groups to 6 or less and we all carry solo shelters - - they know that if there is shelter space, one or two might be able to crash in there but there is no guarantee - - personally, I vastly prefer my tent - - even in the rain - - I know that I am going to be dry and comfortable and not get stepped on and (hey Alligator, what is kabitzing? - is that like talking all damn night long?) so forth.

  18. #38
    Registered User Papa D's Avatar
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    I do sometimes do the shelter thing solo in the winter time - - I spent some snowy nights in some shelters this year as a matter of fact - no cigarette smokers, no kibitzers, no kids, no old farts farting, no snoring, just me at -5 degrees with a couple of shots of whiskey and occasionally my I-pod - - all the softies were at home in their beds fast asleep.

  19. #39
    Coach Lou coach lou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa D View Post
    I do sometimes do the shelter thing solo in the winter time - - I spent some snowy nights in some shelters this year as a matter of fact - no cigarette smokers, no kibitzers, no kids, no old farts farting, no snoring, just me at -5 degrees with a couple of shots of whiskey and occasionally my I-pod - - all the softies were at home in their beds fast asleep.
    i was out once a month this winter, excuse me, sorta winter. twice in january. sheltered most of the time 'cause they were empty except the one time the Mrs. came. New Years up to Riga shelter, a couple and their dog had the same idea. Tracker only tried to get in my bag once!

  20. #40

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    In my tent i am ruler and king.all who enter must obey.
    I try not to sleep in sheltets.i prefer to choose my bedmates.

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