Wow,very well written Winger.Originally Posted by winger
You nailed it!
I think we should put wingfoot and Ray Jardine in the same thread. It would keep from screwing up two threads.
If you find yourself in a fair fight; your tactics suck.
That's a fact
If you find yourself in a fair fight; your tactics suck.
Jack,
As I said, to my knowledge Grandma Gatewood has not written a book. As for Warren Doyle I believe he has but it may have not been published. If you like to read Warren's book, I would suggest you ask him for a copy - which should be a new thread all by itself.
Wolf
My two cents
From what I've seen perhaps what Jardine did best was bring ultra-light hiking into the mainstream outdoor market, probably around 94-97. Things were quite different then, and yes of course, there were hikers out there who were already doing it - but the reality was that MOST hikers were not, and most thru-hikers were out there with 40lb packs.
There seem to be a healthy amount of people on here that talk in vast minority examples, as if 0.5% of the hiking population means anything, like anything what's generally more reflective of where people are at is what the mainstream are doing, and the typical thru-hiker in 1995 did not have a Vapor Trail, 23oz tarptent, 1.5lb down bag, alcohol stove and trail runners.
I'm not a big fan of anything Go-lite does, but that company did more for ultralight hiking than any other company in my experience. I saw it overnight, all of a sudden customers walking into Campmor with postal scales, asking to weigh stuff, asking for the "real weight" - up until then alot of us never thought about packaged weight vs trail weight, we just went by the catalog. It just wasn't all "that" important.
Back in 1995, you could not keep a 7lb 12oz, $420 Terraplane in stock, you couldn't keep mid-weight Vasque Sundowners in stock, despite them being gore-tex and completely leather, 8lb Gregory packs flew out the door, people were carrying 6000 cubic inch packs for 2 day trips! 3.5lb synthetic bags were not considered excessive, nor was carrying 22oz fuel bottles and MSR XGK's, no one was using alcohol stoves back then, you couldn't give away a Trangia back then. Sure, you can point out the 15-30 hikers who were already going very light, but thousands were not.
All of that started to change around the time Jardine put out his book. I did fairly long hikes along the AT in 1995, then again in 2001, and again last year - there has been a slight shift over the past 6-7 years but not much in terms of gear, but the difference between 1995 and 2001 was astounding. And I also saw it at Campmor, and when I ran the department we would be doing 200-300 fits per week easily during Spring, I remember doing stock on small and medium Terraplanes on a Sat morning and be worried that we only had 4 in each size! That's at $450 each with tax! Then one day everyone wants lighter gear, smaller packs, tarps, all around the time Jardine put out his book.
Jardine may not have invented ultralight hiking, but he is largely responsible for making it well known, not entirely, but probably more than any other single person. And the fact the he most likely profited from this is what upsets people most.
Just like Lowe Alpine didn't invent the internal frame pack, they get credit for it because they were the first to mass produce it.
It's all relative.
Just a few problems,
Stranger there are a few problems with your argument and even proves my point that it wasn’t Jardine. I’ll explain. I’ll start with the alcohol stove which I take most personal. Jardine in any of his books never suggest using the alcohol stove. I take that one a little personal because I was the one who introduce the first home made alcohol stove in a 1994 ALDHA workshops (and several others) and in the 1996 video production Lightweight Backpacking Secrets Revealed by Lynn Welden.I started using one back in 1993 on the PCT after my gas stove died on me. Jardine had nothing to do with it and yet you are trying to give him credit for it.
His first book The PCT Handbook came out of course in 1993. Ray Jardine himself was barely traveling lightweight even by the 1990 standards. If you seen it, it was hardly about lightweight backpacking. I should know, I was carrying more weight because of it when I thru-hiked the PCT that year. Even by your own statement, hikers were still buying large packs 2 years after Jardine book first came out. Sure he suggest hikers carry to carry as little as possible but by that same argument so did Wingfoot’ AT Handbook. I believe Wingfoot also suggested using a postal scale. Shouldn't Wingfoot be given the credit to helping hikers lighten up their gear?
His next book came out in 1996, the same year as Lynn Welden video came out and a dozen other books or articles on Lightweight backpacking. It was also the time when the internet was starting to pick up with several backcountry website/forms for people to ask questions. Jardine book was mainly sold on the west cost while the internet expanded a lot farther. You had people all around the country helping hikers learn what gear to get/avoid, learn new tips and answer their questions. Something Jardine could not do in his book.
As for your gear example in 1995, the main stream hikers I agree the Vapor Trail, 23oz tarptent, 1.5lb down bag etc… wasn't around as you said. There was other stuff out there was close to the same weight. There was the North Face Lightrider at 1.7 pounds, or bivy shelter that started at 22 oz if memory serves me right it was made by Sierra Design. All main stream equipment.
As for the huge packs Dana Design Terraplane or Gregory pack, that were sold that is straight out a reflection on the sales personal not taking care of the customer. Sure everyone just starting off thinking they need a large backpack until the first couple weeks on the trail when they learn better. They still do the same thing every year. Go down to Georgia in mid-March/April and you will still see it. Not as much, thanks to the internet and sites like WhiteBlaze.You will also see a lot more hikers that in order to save weight are freezing during the day and at night a lot more than the past. Most hikers don't think about weight until after they hit the trail and feel it on their backs.
Wolf
Wolf, first of all there is no reason to take offense to my post. If you read the post again, you will see that I did not credit Jardine with creating the alcohol stove, I actually mentioned Trangia by name. I didn't mean to say that Jardine invented the home made alcohol stove, what I meant was his profile helped promote ultralight hiking, hence the use of lighter gear, hence using lighter stoves - alcohol stoves.
I'm well aware of Wingfoot's lightweight approach as early as 1985, I've talked with Dan Bruce more than once and I know he was carrying a Trangia back in the 80's. And sure, Wingfoot helped thousands of hikers but other than that video you mentioned, that you are in yourself, I don't recall Wingfoot having the same type of influence as say Jardine in my experiences. He didn't really talk about his packweight as much as some other people I met, or read.
Lynn Wheldon did alot for lightweight hiking, You did alot for ultralight hiking, and so did the internet, progressive outdoor shops, some rogue companies, hardcore AT and PCT hikers - that's not my point. My point is that you can trace alot of influence to Ray Jardine, his books, and Golite. Clearly, there were more influences than Jardine, but not as prominent or well promoted. I agree that this does not necessarily reflect accuracy.
In terms of salespeople selling the wrong gear, well my friend 99% of retail salespeople need a job to earn an income and they do not have influence over what the shop carries. And most people don't obsess over weight the way some other people do, therefore the priority isn't to get someone in the lightest gear possible, there are other considerations, including the customers comfort zone, price, features, durability, fit, suspensions, foams, etc... I never sold a Terraplane cause I thought it was a great pack, I sold a Terraplane because hundreds of people walked in the shop and pointed, and said "I'm looking for a Dana Terraplane", and they wouldn't listen to anything else.
Bill Bryson didn't write the best book about the Appalachian Trail, but it sold the most copies and will always have the most influence. You can choose to like Bryson, or not like him, you can choose to debate the quality of his book or his hike, but you cannot change the fact that his book will go down in history as the most read book about the AT, and most people will develop their view of the AT from "A Walk in the Woods".
Anyhow, I'm happy to "agree to disagree".
Have you ever stopped to think that it has nothing to do w/ writing a book?It has nothing to do w/ success or the net- either
What does that leave you with?
Hey now, Hey now....
.....Be nice......
Young folk are on this forum!
agree to disagree
Stranger,
I am happy to “agree to disagree”, too. I still don’t see how you can trace it all back to Jardine. I was out there A LOT back in the 1990’s up until 1998. The hikers I ran into, most didn’t make their gear as Ray suggested. Only a small amount did. His diet plan, most hikers dumb his idea for Corn Spaghetti in hiker boxes. What else is there? Even Jardine himself, wasn’t traveling all that light up until his last book after getting a help from other hikers. It gives new meaning to the phrase, “do as I say, don’t do as I do”
Peace,
Wolf
what's this corn spaghetti all about?
Watch out now or you guys will be having beers at the White House...
Wolf:
Jardine was famous for advocating corn-based pasta as a great food for hikers.
Some people like it. Most don't.
Happily, at least on the A.T., it's not all that easy to find, so a lot of folks out this way, happily, are unfamiliar with it.
I'll look forward to it!!! I could use a couple COLD BEERs - I'm not allow to drink over here AT ALL.
Wolf
We will have one in your honor at Blister's birthday party this weekend Wolf, and we'll have a real one with you very soon!
He promoted it as being better than wheat pasta even though it tasted like mush. When it was pointed out that it had the exact same benefits, he claimed (w/o example) manufactures had changed the way it was produced. Yeah right.
He was instrumental in teaching hikers how to use a public restroom and ordering from a restaurant - i.e. insist on a paper plate and use your own silverware! One arm backpack! Genius! Umbrellas were used long before he promoted them as well. He did recognize Grandma G in at least one of his books and would wonder why he stopped if she isn't mentioned in later editions. God bless Ray- despite his ego, methods, paranoia and exaggerations he has still managed to play a part in inspiring folks to go lighter.
Rays rep in the climbing community is pretty much the same. He introduced questionable methods for the purpose getting to the top quicker and easier, which he feels is better. His attitude always seemed to be Faster is smarter and slower is stupid and that of course, doesn't suit me. Rat racers on the other hand - tend to have more admiration. Proving how fast you can be done with a trail (taking short-cuts and setting your alarm so as not to take more than a 5 min break) has never been a goal of mine-- despite my speed records.
People love and root for the Squeakys and Scott Williams (in general) because they are unassuming. The WD, WF, FB and RJs get ribbed because they are not.
"... which I take most personal ..." ?
Rlly?
Um,Nean, I hate to rain on the parade, but without going into specifics, there are plenty of reasons that the folks you mentioned above have been "ribbed" over the years.
And it ain't merely because they refused to be unassuming.
Darwin again,
Considering I was the one who first introduce and promoted the first homemade alcohol stove in both a video sold around the country and at multiplies workshops. Jardine never promoted using an alcohol stove. To associate the use of an alcohol stove in a thread inference to a man that had nothing to do with it or promote the idea, I think was out of line particular to the guy that did promote it. Stranger when back and explain, he believes Jardine “hence the use of lighter gear, hence using lighter stoves - alcohol stoves.” I’m don’t see how Jardine hence the use of any lighter equipment any more than WF, Ed Garvy, and half a dozen other former hikers but Stranger is entitle to his opinion as I am mine. As we said, we “agree to disagree”.
So my question to you is what with the “Rlly?” Please also use proper English. I know my English is not perfect either but I don’t like having to do a google search to find out what you are trying to say.
Wolf
Interesting thread.
I will eventually write a book when I can't hike anymore.
My "book" now is in its 27th edition. It is one page (both sides), free and downloadable from my website below.
Looking forward to hiking Franconia Ridge/Garfield tomorrow.
I'm very surprised to hear RJ would be hiking on the AT. It is considered a very easy trail by most serious long-distance trekkers (many call it the 'bunny slope' of long-distance hiking). I can't imagine why a trekker with the stamina and experience of RJ would even consider hiking something as easy as the AT again with all the more challenging and more beautiful trails available. Maybe he is rehabbing some sort of injury or needs to stay close to civilization to stay in touch with Jenny.
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