Incompetent/unprepared Boy Scouts. Why? Who's at fault?

[sylvia_claire]

What Troop do YOU volunteer with? I assume you are at least an ASM? if not, quit complaining and volunteer. Sick and tired of the people trash talking Cub / Boy Scount who haven't spent 10 minutes helping out.

<<<<<7 years given to Cub Scouts

can we stop idea that if you aren't working on this particular problem than you have no right to say anything argument, that people keep bringing up. Yes scouts need better volunteers in many troops, but that doesn't mean you have no right to complain if you are not one. it could be that you volunteer your time at a community garden to raise vegetables for a soup kitchen, take care of a trail, raise money for breast cancer, and help Habitat for Humanity two weeks a year that would not mean you can only make complaints related to those causes. I certainly agree that if you are doing nothing to help better the world then you should just stop complaining but if you work on every issue you will get very little done


and yes I have volunteered to help the boy scouts(well cub scouts) though only for two weeks at a camp one summer(my aunt's troop)

I suggest feeding them less SUGAR.

[SteveJ]

My definition, as an adult, of whining is: complaining about something you are unable or unwilling to do something about.

[sylvia_claire]

[quote=SteveJ;883106]My definition, as an adult, of whining is: complaining about something you are unable or unwilling to do something about.[/quote



?

[Camping Dave]

I was passing (the opposite direction) a line of scouts who looked like they were dragging and out of energy. I stopped and helped adjust 2 of the boys packs

Well that's might fine.

and they were immediately SCREAMED at because they had talked to a stranger.

SCREAMED at in all caps? Doubtful. Could have happened. It's easy to understand a scout leader's anxiety when he witnesses an old man stop two youth and start touching them.

Uncountable times crossing paths with groups of scouts hiking in cold rain or wet snow with cotton shirts and jeans with blue lips and shivering.

Laughably false, unless by "uncountable" you mean zero.

The worst was a group hiking in wet falling snow in cotton T shirts and jeans with tennis shoes, stopped for lunch, uncontrollable shivering and several crying and NOT being allowed to put on their jackets because they will "get them too wet in this weather".

Another obvious fiction.

I think that it is amazing that most Boy Scouts even attempt backpacking a second time.

And yet they do. Without your help. Which is probably just as well, as it's clear you have a problem relaying accurate information and making points without resorting to hyperbole.

We took 8 scouts backpacking in May, 17 in August on a shorter trip, and everybody had a good time. Getting ready for another 8 or 10 in September. How can this possibly happen?

[russb]

Most of us will remember negative experiences, or will notice things that look out of the ordinary. Thinking back there were many times while in Scouts that passersby never would have known we were scouts on the trail (or water). They and us were just doing what we were doing and neither party brought any attention to themselves. I am sure that many of us have run across patrols such as this and never even noticed they were scouts, and/or it was not memorable enough to make an impression. One should also remember that community service is a requirement with BSA and many of the trails we enjoy have been maintained in part by boys giving of their time in service to others. Of course, unless we happen to be there while they are working, we may never realize this positive aspect, yet we benefit from it.

Not all troops have the same focus, as the range of activities is great.
Jim, it is a shame that neither you nor your boys shopped around to find a troop that was more outdoors oriented. If you had, you would probably have had a more positive experience and also helped contribute to other boys love of the outdoors and not just your sons.

[jcramin]

WOW I started watching this conversation and it sure took off. I am an Eagle Scout myself and I have a son who will be an Eagle Scout next year. I have 35 years in Scouting and I have seen good and bad and it has to do with the parents and the leaders both. If a parent does not teach their child right from wrong it sure is hard for a Scout Leader to do it. Right now I have to admit I am in one of the not so great troops when it comes to Leave No Trace and Being Prepared. We have a Scout Master who only has a few years experience in Scouting and he wants all the power and that just does not workout. especially when your Scout Master does not rely on his experienced assistants.

[jcramin]

Yeah. I understand that they are desperate for help, because I've been in that situation where I was one of the only 4 volunteering month after month after month. But, a troop of 75 boys needs lots of adult help. They need to focus on finding qualified individuals and not worry about gender. Simply saying that dads participation is mandatory puts them right into that trap I mentioned in earlier posts. Taking any warm body as a volunteer is not the solution.

I have to say things arnt great, but they have gotten MUCH BETTER. Back 30 years ago when my dad was my Scout Master 90% of the Scout outings we went on my dad was the ONLY adult leader with anywhere between 20 and 30 boys.

[Wags]

i worked w/ boyscouts backpacking this entire past summer. it was my 1st experience w/ scouts. we have 7 different groups of kids (14-17 yo). all of those groups exhibited better 'trail manners' than a number of thrus who felt it's someone else's job to clean up after them

[Doctari]

I have encountered Groups 3 times: #1 The leaders were mostly at least aware of the basics, but 3 leaders & 35 kids (I counted) lets say I gladly let them pass me by & then camped a few miles before they did (I asked).
#2, the leaders were totally indifferent, the group size was manageable by 2 leaders, they had 3 & about 12 kids (I didn't count). I met them less than 2 miles from where they parked, the kids were doing as described: cutting down live trees, tearing up fragile plants, etc. The leaders couldn't care less.
#3: WOW, I was impressed, and I don't impress easily! The kids had ONE adult leader, there were 15 kids, they were polite, offered to get water for this old guy (Me) & did chores without being told. We shared food & stories, and they were having a GREAT time (I asked and you could see it.) I am shamed to admit that I started to pack up to leave when I saw them coming into the (Large enough for all) shelter area. I am glad I was talked out of it by others there.

Sadly, I think in this day & age group #3 is rare. Yes, I could offer to help, not going to happen, I'm done raising kids. Anyway, I feel your pain.

[wystiria]

as a lifetime member myself - and a Gold award recipient I find it interesting that we have so many scout fanatics here saying that it is "fiction" that people see scout groups out there in cold conditons in Jeans, or cotton - or that never do they see leaders yelling at kids for crying or whining. I have seen all of this! absolutly. infact I once whitnessed a BS leader reprimand a young BS at a camping competition for crying about having an embedded tick from his neck. his exact words were "suck it up and be a man" I am not joking. This same leader wore jeans to a weekend camping competion in early april in new england and saw no problems with this. Even though it was expressly "outlawed" in the competions rule book (which I know he did not read since I performed the inspections on campsites and personal gear)


as everyone else has said there is good through bad in the scouts and it all comes down to the leaders. I have just as many fabulous stories from great encounters with groups. Sadly though, the truly bad ones are the ones that stick with you.

I do think the BSA probably needs to step in and mandate more training for backcountry trips. However, having watched the pendulum swing in the GSUSA to extreme red tape and training I know that can be a double edged sword. becasue i know in GSUSA it is VERY difficult (especially in new england) to get enough adults or any adults that are properly certified to take girls out on multiday trips. there has to be a middle ground, hopefully both organizations will find it.

I will say I am on sabatical, becasue it was just soooo difficult dealing with troops where not even the parents would volunteer. *sigh* and I don't even have kids. but I will go back eventually, becasue it is a great orginization (both boy and girl) and it provided me with great opportunities and I want to pay it back.

[Skyline]

You can't generalize nor stereotype about Boy Scouts' behavior in the woods any more than you can about any other group of people. Good and bad apples fall from almost all their trees.

However, BSA could certainly mandate that an acceptable level of backcountry training be required of anyone leading Boy Scouts into the woods—or they just don't go. We should leave it to wiser persons than me to decide what that acceptable level is, or perhaps we could compile suggestions here.

If adopting such a BSA-wide regulation means fewer backcountry visits by Boy Scouts, so be it. They, other hikers, and our environment, will be better and safer for it. The Scouts who wind up taking woods outings led by truly competent, well trained adults and senior Scouts will also be better for it.

[mister krabs]

As a cub scout leader, our pack can't go on an overnight without at least 2 leaders trained in Basic outdoor leadership. I know that we usually have at least 4 or 5 trained adults on every outing. Boy scouts is in essence a local organization. They have an international professional staff and guidelines, but where things really happen is at the Leader to Scout level. Good leaders make good scouts, as described numerous times in this thread.

[Two Speed]

Been watching this debate, and I don't think I've seen a good response to DWM's challenge in Post #13: "If you got a better plan for how kids are supposed to be exposed to wilderness hiking and backpacking then lay it out here."

Yeah, I've been annoyed by Boy Scouts. Yeah, they can be a total PITA. Still, anyone got a better plan?

[mudhead]

Dad teaches son. That is how it would be in a perfect world.

[woodsy]

I met a great group of scouts recently who were out on a blue blaze overnighter.
When i came upon them they were taking a break in the middle of the trail while the two leaders were pumping water from a hole not far away.
As soon as they saw me coming they gathered up their packs and opened up the trail so i could pass through.

[Two Speed]

. . . Still, anyone got a better plan?

Dad teaches son. That is how it would be in a perfect world.

'Kay, we got the "perfect world" option. Anyone else?

[Cannibal]

I liked the Boy Scouts till I hiked the AT. And yes, I did volunteer to help. I volunteered their Troop Leader to go pick-up all the trash his kids left laying on the ground blowing around in the wind. It fell on deaf ears; big surprise!

I ran into 4 troops on my way thru the Smokies; all of them were deplorable. Kids are going to be kids, I get that. The people who volunteer to guide them should be better than that. I don't have an answer how to fix it, but then again I don't have any children to contribute to the problem. I just get the joy of dealing with other people's kids in the woods, the parents of whom never understand why I don't want to be chummy with them and their hellions.

[Jim Adams]

Camping Dave,
Ohhhh, there you are....I was wondering who had their head buried in the sand!

geek

[Wise Old Owl]

I was a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout back in the day but got out of it because our troop never did anything in the outdoors.
My son was a Cub Scout and he quit for the same reasons...he was bored. He has spent untold days and nights in the wilderness, more canoeing than backpacking but his teaching of the wilderness came from adults that were knowledgeable and educated in the correct and safe ways to travel in such conditions.
The boys that I was describing weren't whiners.They were totally miserable hikers that were in that situation because their leaders weren't trained, taught or educated in the correct ways of backpacking. It was very obvious that:
a. the boys weren't shown how to pack lighter.
b. the boys weren't taught about poor clothing choices that could be fatal.
c. the boys weren't shown how to correctly adjust their backpacks.
d. the leaders on those hikes didn't have the training to lead such groups in those conditions.
The scouts weren't setting poor examples, the leaders were!

A few weeks ago there was major discussion on WB about a Scout who had gone dayhiking in the Whites and ended up being prepared for surviving 3 days in bad weather and then charged $25,000 for a rescue that he did not need but charged anyway because of " his stupid decisions and actions". How much should these leaders be charged?
It seems that you just don't get it. I think that the Boy Scouts is a great organization for the youth of today and for our wilderness however you just don't see that some of them need educated.

geek

How is it that we both volunteer our time over the years and you come away with such a poor attitude or writing and put down what I say? I am thinking you are contradicting yourself, Great Organization but the leaders set a poor example? Only one good remembrance? Jim you are suffering from crotchety old man stuff, are you a proffessional curmudgeon?

I will agree Cubs was aweful - I didn't last long either. I think My mom took me there just to have one on one time with other gals in the neighborhood. It wasn't fun until one day a dad got involved and got us boxing with gloves that it became interesting.

I find fault with everything I highlighted above, I cannot agree with what you wrote. I feel Camping Dave above has something there about what you wrote, I won't call it fiction.

I dug up an old picture, because I don't want pics of current scouts here on WB - This is from a thirty miler in Pennsylvania, from 2003

All these boys were given lists and pictures of what to wear, and patrol skits to show how to pack. Some brought more than they needed, others not enough. Most of them showed up in Blue Jeans anyway, and they all had a good time. Four Adults with a ASM and SM, I am holding the camera.
And keep in mind Blue Jeans have been the mainstay for almost a hundred years.

[tlbj6142]

Dad teaches son. That is how it would be in a perfect world.

Amen. That's my current plan. And it seems to be working. Plus I don't make them do badges when they could be having fun collecting firewood, bugs, crayfish, etc.

I'm more worried about the "badge factory" aspects of BSA than "back country knowledge". Plus I have 2 daughters and GS is nearly worthless when it comes to "outdoor activities". They have great day-camps and overnight camps, but for whatever reason GS seems to just die about 4th grade. I'm doing Y-Tribes (aka Indian guides) with my son which gives us good Father and Son time. Plus all the times I kick his butt at Mario Kart!

With the above "external" groups, combined with a yearly backpacking trip (Grandpa comes as well) and several car camping trips we (my family) are doing fine. I don't want to have to "un-do" the potential damage BSA might cause. Plus I can do it on my schedule.