Incompetent/unprepared Boy Scouts. Why? Who's at fault?

[dloome]

I hike a lot, all over the place. I've seen many scout groups out there, probably a couple dozen, and not once have I been positively impressed.

I've seen Scout groups hacking live trees to pieces with hatchets, camping on sensitive riparian land in the desert, camping directly at the mouth of a flash-flood prone slot canyon during the monsoon season, leaving toilet paper unburied, etc. I've come across entire groups on the wrong trail miles from where they wanted to be (they asked me for directions). Entire groups dressed in cotton clothing with no rain protection for their packs IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST. Entire groups with no sun-protective clothing or hats, and carrying a 16 oz. bottled water apiece IN GRAND CANYON and many more examples of general ignorance, or much worse.

I realize not everyone can, or wants to afford high-end backpacking gear, but this is no excuse for going out with totally inappropriate equipment, into areas which exceed your backcountry skills, for not even trying to leave no trace, or for putting yourself (and potential rescuers) into danger by being completely uninformed to the specific hazards of your chosen hike.

I don't think I've ever seen a more reliably unprepared, clueless lot in the outdoors, period. Is this indicative of the entire Scout organization these days? Do they teach these kids any real skills at all anymore? To what extent are the troop leaders at fault? If you're involved in the Scout organization, why do you think the stuff I describe occurs, and how might Scouts be better educated for the outdoors?

[russb]

The problems you describe are the result of the adults involved. Most of the time this is due to having only parents of the scouts who themselves are not outdoorspeople as the leaders. Many councils provide training for the adults, but having been to some of these I can tell you that it is only the basics and very few of the adults have any experience in the outdoors. They really need someone in the troop to lead THEM. The troops/councils, IMHO, that have the best prepared scouts are ones whose leadership is made up of adults who have been with the organization for quite a few years, many of whom their sons are now adults and no longer involving in scouting (in the local area). I have volunteered at a few troops over the years and this generalization is based on my experience only. In an organization where the adults are volunteers, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find competent leaders to help teach not only the scouts, but their parents. Once the cycle is broken it is very difficult to repair. If you, or others reading this have the time and/or inclination I would recommend calling your local council and asking about how you can volunteer. Even if it is to just give a workshop on LNT, or proper tent site selection, etc...

Russ

PS. I am an Eagle Scout.

[SteveJ]

Frankly, given the tone of many other (not all) emails about positive encounters with scouts by non-scouters, I find it difficult to believe that you have ONLY had negative experiences with scouts, and that all scouts you have encountered have been this stupid.

I can't decide whether you are trolling and/or have such negative views of scouting that you choose only to see those doing dumb things.

P.S. I'm the Troop Committee Chair, father of an Eagle Scout (with another on the way), and have personally approved 30 Eagle Scout applications. I also just walked in the house from a weekend troop camping trip emphasizing LNT.

[trippclark]

Russ gave a proper reply. Scouting relies on volunteer leadership. All Scout volunteers are well intentioned, but the still level and experiences are widely varied. I've been involved in Scouting as a youth and adult for more than 30 years and have seen troops that are very skilled in the outdoors, and many that are not. The program does offer training, but much of it is optional (but encouraged). For many leaders, already giving generously with their time -- literally hundreds of hours each year -- it is tough to attend ever training course out there. So we end up with leaders with a wide variety of training levels.

David, proper outdoor ethics is obviously something that you care about and are knowledgeable about. I would suggest talking with your local council and seeing if they can put you in touch with your council and/or district training chairman. That person -- also a volunteer -- would likely be very sensitive to your concerns and would probably be able to work you in as part of the solution, perhaps by assisting with upcoming council or district training opportunities where you can be part of the solution. You will probably find it to be a rewarding use of your time where you can have an impact on an issue that you feel passionate about.

[Wise Old Owl]

We have long threads that address this subject in the past at WB, and this is most likely going to open some passionate posts like "Dogs need leashes"

It really has nothing to do with the uniform, we are all human and we make mistakes, Young immature boys come from all walks of life, some have their act together, others don't. Some are mentally handicapped or others have no visible issues but a hidden challenge like Ashbergers. The volunteering adults are challenged to do the right thing as much as the scouts are. Remember its to teach outdoor skills and leadership roles in life.

They will always be looking for help - Why not vollenteer a night a week and find out? Walk a mile in their boots - You will make freinds for life.

Harold Swarbrick (Grand Father) England Scouting just prior to WW1
Mark Swarbrick - Eagle Scout
Austin Swarbick - Eagle Scout

[Rocket Jones]

Ditto on what Russ said, and it's not a recent thing either. When I was a youngster, my brother and I belonged to an excellent troop led by experienced outdoorsy adults. We moved across town and my brother and I found ourselves in a troop where we had more outdoors experience than all of the rest of the troop combined, including adults. Kudos to the adults for volunteering, but the lack of leadership can destroy enthusiasm in the kids.

[Midway Sam]

Who's at fault? You are. Seriously, I'm not joking... What scouting lacks is people like you with both the knowledge and the desire to see someone do things the right way.

Most often dads who don't have the proper knowledge are forced into being leaders simply because they are the only ones willing to step forward for these boys.

To quote Ghandi... "Be the change you would like to see in the world."

[royalusa]

After having thru-hiked the AT last year, the biggest issue we had with the boy scout troops was their group size. We came across several troops hiking in groups as large as 15-20 which puts a serious strain on the shelter tent spots. Imagine the shelters that had 6 documented and designated tent sites and then a group of 15-20 scouts arrive. I think the standard maximum group size for anyone is supposed to be 6-8, isn't it?

[Lellers]

I just retired from scouting after 15 years as a scout leader, 10 of those as an assistant scoutmaster. I still continue as a backpacking and hiking merit badge counselor.

Sadly, I've observed similar situations. But I've also seen some well prepared, well taught groups, as well. Back in April, I stopped and talked to a scout group at the Tye River. They were preparing to climb the Priest as part of a training shakedown for the Grand Canyon. They seemed well prepared, their leaders were experienced, and we talked about their plans for gear shakedowns, physical training sessions, and fundraising etc., which would take the better part of a year before their planned trip to the GC. I was impressed. A few hours later, I happened upon another boy scout troop at Harpers Creek shelter. What a mess! They had just hiked in for the day to "play", according to one of the adults with them. There was trash everywhere. I observed a few of them peeing into the creek. They were heaving rocks, cutting saplings for marshmallow sticks, digging holes near the shelter. I had a foot injury and limped into the shelter area on a hot day. The limp was obvious. I looked and smelled like a backpacker. I thought it was pretty obvious that I would want to sit down somewhere, but the shelter was full of lounging adult and their trash and gear. Boys occupied every spot at the picnic table. When I asked one boy to move over a bit, he actually said to me "I was here first." His friends laughed, and a few echoed his comment. Not that it should matter, but I'm a woman, well old enough to be the mother of any of the boys. I was really irritated by the rudeness. I smiled at the boys and said, "Let's run the Scout Law, my friends." Which seemed to attract the attention of one or two of their adult leaders.

"Running the Scout Law" is a decision-making technique taught to scouts. If they have a question about whether or not to do something, or if they want to evaluate a decision made, they simply run down the Scout Law and ask themselves, "If I do/did this, will it be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent." If they answer NO to any of those points of the Scout Law, then the decision has to be re-worked. In the case of our rude scout who didn't want to give up his seat to a lady/injured hiker, we didn't even get past helpful, let along friendly and courteous. A bit later, I had a private conversation with the scoutmaster. One adult did apologize to me later, saying that he was new to the troop and "had concerns" about the group. The boys did clean up at the end of their stay, and they packed out their trash after I nicely explained to them why it was a bad idea to toss it down the privy.

The problem with that group, and with most unruly, unprepared scout groups was with the adults. Scouts are boys, so the responsibility will always fall to the adults who volunteer to lead them. Adult leaders should attend BSA training. One thing that is emphasized in training is the "sandwich principle". If you picture a sandwich made with a bun, the top and bottom of the sandwich should always be Qualified Supervision and Discipline, with the main part of the sandwich being Scouting Safety.

Qualified Supervision and Discipline. And therein lies the problem! It's just darn difficult to find qualified adults willing to volunteer and who have a talent for working with young people.

It's hard to find good volunteers for anything. Many parents sign their boys up for scouting but don't volunteer to help. Some volunteer, but they aren't qualified. Many times, the boys and the adults have the same level of experience in the woods, which is next to nothing. Some adults are experienced, but they have no talent for dealing with young people. Some are reliving their own days as boy scouts and think they know everything. They may attend training, but they don't actually absorb any information presented to them.

In my opinion, that's it in a nutshell. It's hard to find good volunteers who are willing to give up so much of their time, who have the skills and experience, the talent to work with rowdy teenage boys, and the patience to deal with their parents who will not back down from their misinformed opinions. (Ok, the parent thing is my own personal weakness. And if you care to read about one of my parent issues, I posted a thread last year about a trip I organized through SNP for 6 boy scouts.) Since there is a shortage of qualified adults who volunteer with the boys, often any warm body is accepted as a leader. These adults don't know enough, they don't go to training enough or at all, they don't learn, they're tired from a long work week, they consider their weekend camping trips with the scouts to be their vacation, etc. etc.

In short, it's the responsibility of the adults. The BSA offers excellent training, but its effectiveness is hit or miss. In recent years, the BSA has begun tightening up on the training requirements. Some councils are now requiring that ALL adults go to training. That's fine, but at the current time, attendance is all that's required. There is no testing following the training. There are new, stricter requirements for the health and conditioning of leaders. If you plan a 100-mile hike with teenage boys, you better be able to keep up with them! There is also a new requirement that at least one adult in a group doing backcountry activities has to be certified in wilderness first aid. Great! It's improving, but there is a long way to go. There is no scout leader police, per se. No one goes out and checks up on what a troop actually does in the woods. But you and I can always speak up. Pull an adult leader aside and talk to him/her about what's going on. Sometimes the information is received well. Sometimes not. If you want to go further, find out their troop number, council and district. You can always call one of the paid BSA staff people at council offices and talk to them about dangerous situations you've seen. And, if you are so inclined, you can volunteer. That's the best way to help the situation.

It's not perfect, but scouting does great things for lots of kids. Some troops are fantastic, some should be shut down and hosed out. Like every other mostly-volunteer organization, there just are not enough good people out there who are willing to step up and volunteer. Back in the early days of scouting, there were fewer boys in the program and more adults who had experience in the outdoors. The balance was better. Today, our society is so much more "civilized", and often adults have no more experience in the outdoors than do the boys. It makes me sad, but there are still a lot of great scout troops out there. I hope you run into one of those!

[SouthMark]

Who's at fault? You are. Seriously, I'm not joking... What scouting lacks is people like you with both the knowledge and the desire to see someone do things the right way.

Most often dads who don't have the proper knowledge are forced into being leaders simply because they are the only ones willing to step forward for these boys.

To quote Ghandi... "Be the change you would like to see in the world."

You are so right and most often these inexperienced dads that are forced into leadership roles do not get ant help from the other parents in the troop and have to go it alone. BSA (Baby Sitters of America). Been there, I know.

[Just a Hiker]

I, for one, don't mind the Scout Troops that I encounter on the trail because I always score great food off of them; however, I understand what you are all saying. When I was in Scouts my Scoutmaster was a raging alcoholic and our Assistant Scoutmaster had just returned from Vietnam and was going through a difficult time. The result was that we ran wild when we went on hiking trips and Jamborees and we did some pretty stupid stuff.....and I am quite sure we annoyed serious long distance hikers with our lack of backcountry knowledge.

[Dances with Mice]

Speaking strictly for myself I like seeing kids out on the trail. Scouts, church groups, Hoods in the Woods, families, whatever.

Granted, I'm from an area where the trail is designed to host groups. If the GATC didn't recognize that Georgia gets a blast of hikers early in the season we'd be blind. We ain't. We ain't perfect either but I can't speak for either the GATC or, again, anybody else but myself.

That being said, I like seeing the footprints of youngsters on the Trail. Because out of 100 kids out underprepared on the Trail maybe 25 will want to come back better prepared. Maybe. And of those maybe 3 or 4 will continue backpack as they outgrow Scouts. Maybe.

And one of those might decide later to join the local maintaining club. Maybe.

If you got a better plan for how kids are supposed to be exposed to wilderness hiking and backpacking then lay it out here. Anyone have a story about how unprepared they were as Scouts out on their first trips into the wilderness?

If so you've made my point.

[skinewmexico]

99.9% of the adults now take their kids to Scouts because they think of it as "Baby Sitters of America". So you can't get volunteers, the ones you get are inexperienced, and very few people who have experince will volunteer to help teach, even temporarily.

[Jester2000]

. . . I can't decide whether you are trolling and/or have such negative views of scouting that you choose only to see those doing dumb things. . .

There is a third possibility, which is that he's just telling the truth.

[Pedaling Fool]

...When I was in Scouts my Scoutmaster was a raging alcoholic and our Assistant Scoutmaster had just returned from Vietnam and was going through a difficult time. The result was that we ran wild when we went on hiking trips and Jamborees and we did some pretty stupid stuff.....and I am quite sure we annoyed serious long distance hikers with our lack of backcountry knowledge.

Those are the kind of scout leaders I would want as a kid. Started drinking pretty early in life......ahh, the good ol' days...

[dloome]

Yeah, I hate kids too.

Oh, please. Kids are great. (I still am one.) I absolutely love seeing a parents with their child, even entire families in the outdoors, in our National Parks, on trails, etc. This is wonderful! I have every interest in ensuring the next generation likes the outdoors as much as I do- Like I read right here on WB some time ago, "If you don't take a kid hiking, there won't be trails in the future." I work with some of the outdoor programs at the U in town, but haven't worked with younger kids yet, which is something I'd like to get into.

My thoughts in this case were simply that the Boy Scouts are a major organization that often functions to introduce kids to the outdoors and nearly everything I have experienced first hand indicates that this is not always being done very well, sometimes quite poorly. The Scouts are of course not the only organization who would experience these issues. I chose to use a couple negative/extreme examples, and possibly this set a poor or confrontational tone for the thread which was not intended.

Are there well-equipped, well prepared scout troops out there being led by experienced, responsible adults? Unquestionably, and they should be commended. I would be thrilled to meet some of them on a trail someday.

Why there aren't more is what I was interested in. It's easy to criticize, much more difficult to offer real solutions, I know. Young boys are an inherently unruly bunch no matter what organization they're affiliated with. This is reality.

Anyway, all this poses some tough questions, such as-Which is worse? To have a group of young kids in the outdoors without responsible adult leadership and supervision, or for that same group to not have time in the outdoors at all? Both scenarios are pretty unfortunate.

For those knowledgeable about the subject who are willing to have a real discussion: Specifically, what do you think are the most important lessons or ideas you'd like to see Scout and other youth groups "take away" with them when it comes to the outdoors, wilderness ethics, etc.?

Thanks Russ and Lellers for your constructive input.

[The Weasel]

dloome -

If you are going to be as immediately confrontational and judgmental about kids Scouts or otherwise - and their parents as you were here with your initial post, as well as asserting an "everyone of them was bad" mentality as a means of "asking" about things, you really need to get into some other kind of work that with children.

TW

[Camping Dave]

Really? Cotton clothing! OMG what noobs. Imagine the nerve of those 11 year old boys, thinking they can go into the woods to have fun.

Quit your whining loome. "Real" hikers do that kind of stuff too, and worse: doping, drinking, shooting guns, leaving tons of trash, etc. Did you ever think about helping, or does your ability to lend a hand only extend so far as keyboard complaining?

[hikingshoes]

Im not big on talking about someone,but dloome Id say stop talking about the Scouts and help them(if you can).Your young so show them what you know.Maybe just alittle help with your skills would go along way...Charles

I hike a lot, all over the place. I've seen many scout groups out there, probably a couple dozen, and not once have I been positively impressed.

I've seen Scout groups hacking live trees to pieces with hatchets, camping on sensitive riparian land in the desert, camping directly at the mouth of a flash-flood prone slot canyon during the monsoon season, leaving toilet paper unburied, etc. I've come across entire groups on the wrong trail miles from where they wanted to be (they asked me for directions). Entire groups dressed in cotton clothing with no rain protection for their packs IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST. Entire groups with no sun-protective clothing or hats, and carrying a 16 oz. bottled water apiece IN GRAND CANYON and many more examples of general ignorance, or much worse.

I realize not everyone can, or wants to afford high-end backpacking gear, but this is no excuse for going out with totally inappropriate equipment, into areas which exceed your backcountry skills, for not even trying to leave no trace, or for putting yourself (and potential rescuers) into danger by being completely uninformed to the specific hazards of your chosen hike.

I don't think I've ever seen a more reliably unprepared, clueless lot in the outdoors, period. Is this indicative of the entire Scout organization these days? Do they teach these kids any real skills at all anymore? To what extent are the troop leaders at fault? If you're involved in the Scout organization, why do you think the stuff I describe occurs, and how might Scouts be better educated for the outdoors?

[jesse]

Scouts are a work in progress. Leaders are responsible for keeping the boys safe, and to insure LNT principles are followed. Having said that, you gotta give them room to make mistakes so they can learn from those mistakes.

I have found that hunters to be one of the worst groups of people who use the outdoors. They will trash an area, and not even try to practice LNT. They have no intention of hauling out beer, and soda bottles/cans.

The Allatoona WMA in Georgia is a cesspool.