how to convince my marathon runner brother that hiking is diferrent?

[Mags]

A minor point, but you're primarily using long twitch fibers in both backpacking and marathons.

I would argue that a marathon runner (esp one who is running most of the race and on roads) certainly has more short twitch never fibers than a backpacker. The speed of a marathon is much more intense than a 26 mile backpack.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly15.htm

(IS this where you got your chicken analogy from ??!?!! It is a good one BTW)


That 75/25 ratio (long/short) is gonna be even more skewed in dedicated backpackers vs marathon runners.

Ultrarunners (and trail runners in general) probably have the musculature/never fibers more analogous to backpackers esp those backpacker who hike long days/fast.

Go long..go slow is how most ultrarunners go (an elite ultra runner averages 6 MPH/10 min miles for over 100 miles in something like the Leadville 100. Impressive..but slow compared to the more intense and quick pace of an elite marathon runner. Apples and pineapples.. Kinda like backpacking and running. )


[/QUOTE]
How this is relevant to the OP, I do not know [/QUOTE]


And that is why many marathon runners cave on multiday backpacks esp of the intense long hiking day/elevation gain types.


Any person who thinks (road in particular) marathon running and mutliday backpacking is the same is well, probably not correct.

Running in a a marathon, on a road, with aid stations for one day is a different activity and skill set.

..and that is how it relates.

[Petr]

I would argue that a marathon runner (esp one who is running most of the race and on roads) certainly has more short twitch never fibers than a backpacker. The speed of a marathon is much more intense than a 26 mile backpack.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly15.htm

(IS this where you got your chicken analogy from ??!?!! It is a good one BTW)


That 75/25 ratio (long/short) is gonna be even more skewed in dedicated backpackers vs marathon runners.

Ultrarunners (and trail runners in general) probably have the musculature/never fibers more analogous to backpackers esp those backpacker who hike long days/fast.

Go long..go slow is how most ultrarunners go (an elite ultra runner averages 6 MPH/10 min miles for over 100 miles in something like the Leadville 100. Impressive..but slow compared to the more intense and quick pace of an elite marathon runner. Apples and pineapples.. Kinda like backpacking and running. )

How this is relevant to the OP, I do not know [/quote]


And that is why many marathon runners cave on multiday backpacks esp of the intense long hiking day/elevation gain types.


Any person who thinks (road in particular) marathon running and mutliday backpacking is the same is well, probably not correct.

Running in a a marathon, on a road, with aid stations for one day is a different activity and skill set.

..and that is how it relates.[/quote]

Alright!!! An argument/discussion with one of my favorite WB posters. My main (albeit minor) point was that the primary muscle cell type relied upon by marathoners and thru-hikers is the slow twitchers. Your reference link agrees:

"For example, marathon runners have 75% slow twitch fibers while sprinters have 75% fast twitch fiber"

Perhaps you're right in that thru-hikers may exceed the 75/25 ratio seen in marathoners, though I doubt if that study has been done. I would be surprised, however, if the difference was dramatic or "statistically significant." I think where you may be mistaken is that you're placing too much emphasis upon speed and not enough on the length of time it takes to exhaust the short twitchers: it is not a matter of days/weeks/months but minutes. A marathoner probably exhausts his/her short twitchers within 3-4 miles and a thru-hiker does the same within a shorter climb up a moderately challenging ascent.

The chicken analogy is indeed a good one...it's the reason that I remember this particular lecture much more clearly than the thousands of others that I've heard in med school. The first time I was presented with this information, the lecturer used the same instructive analogy. I doubt he read your link, but it's likely that the original source, if you go back far enough, is the same scientific article.

I agree that the challenges of backpacking and running are indeed like apples and pineapples, but not necessarily for reasons pertaining to muscle cell types. I do have to admit that I've neither run a marathon nor thru-hiked (which my esteemed conversant has done in spades (though I hope that I may claim the latter as of next fall)), but I have had an obscene amount of classroom instruction in physiology. So, yes, multiday backpacking and marathon running are different animals; however, I am more inclined to attribute this to the mental/emotional aspects of this and, to a lesser extent, the different muscle groups involved, than I am to different muscle cell types.

A quick caveat: I've been wrong before, and I'm loathe to disparage the opinions of those with experience that I do not yet possess. I'm simply regurgitating what I've been told by those whose resumes I respect.

Peter

[Petr]

The chicken analogy is not actually an analogy. Analogy implies a similar logical process applied to a different situation. The poultry business is in fact a direct comparison: the biochemistry behind it is nearly identical.

[Mags]

however, I am more inclined to attribute this to the mental/emotional aspects of this and, to a lesser extent, the different muscle groups involved, than I am to different muscle cell types.

\

Fair enough. I am using rough layman's terms while you are putting it much more precise scientific terms. Otherwise, I think we are saying similar thoughts.

I think a better comparison is between ultra-trail runners and fast/long backpackers than road runners from what I've seen (an experienced) to be honest. I've honestly seen marathon runners (again mainly road based) not do well because they do not have the overall endurance.

YMMV.

[Mags]

The chicken analogy is not actually an analogy. Analogy implies a similar logical process applied to a different situation. The poultry business is in fact a direct comparison: the biochemistry behind it is nearly identical.

Now you are being like a certain poop-packing lawyer.

[heyoka87]

Well I have run 3 marathons. Nothing special mind you 3:41 best time. I was half way up to Horns Pond in the Bigalows when I relized that the upper body muscle use made hiking , I thought , a lot harder than marathoning. In the marathon you use a specialized group of muscles on a smooth track. It takes determination and grit to run one granted but hiking presents so many unanticipated hurdles- the mud, muck,rocks, bugs,elevation changes,diet issues ect. It's not that nice closed off road or parkway with aid stations and the "meatwagons" cruising around picking up the halt and lame. Don't get me wrong the marathon is noble goal. It's the Holy Grail if you will of distance running. Dr George Sheehan the running guru said it is designed to break you in two. My thing is it is so controlled as far as your environment compared to hiking which always has neverending menu of changing challenges. Just my opinion. Both of them aren,t for the faint of heart.

[John B]

Well I have run 3 marathons. Nothing special mind you 3:41 best time.

You deserve congrats for a 3:41. I'd be very satisfied with that time.

And I definitely agree with you -- it's designed to break a person and it's not for the faint of heart. Even so, it's highly addictive.

[modiyooch]

You deserve congrats for a 3:41. I'd be very satisfied with that time.

And I definitely agree with you -- it's designed to break a person and it's not for the faint of heart. Even so, it's highly addictive.

both are highly addictive.

We need for the woman marathon runner from western carolina to weigh in. I believe she just broke the record for female thru hike.

[Spogatz]

Being one, I know that there are quite a few overweight hikers but you just don't see that many overweight marathon runners.

[Pedaling Fool]

Being one, I know that there are quite a few overweight hikers but you just don't see that many overweight marathon runners.

There's also a lot of overweight cyclists. However, the cyclists that particiapte in a lot of racing or iron man events don't have the same weight issues

[Lone Wolf]

i'm running a 16 mile trail race this saturday. what's a reasonable finishing time?

[Jester2000]

i'm running a 16 mile trail race this saturday. what's a reasonable finishing time?

Dunno. Not last?

[Jester2000]

It's just runnin'.

[kolokolo]

Back to the subject of the OP...

I think that a marathon runner has just about all of the conditioning needed to do a long hike. The only question would be upper body strength, but the need for that conditioning would depend on how much weight he/she was carrying.

And, like Bearpaw said somewhere up above, mental preparedness is at least as important anyway.

[jersey joe]

Back to the subject of the OP...

I think that a marathon runner has just about all of the conditioning needed to do a long hike. The only question would be upper body strength, but the need for that conditioning would depend on how much weight he/she was carrying.

And, like Bearpaw said somewhere up above, mental preparedness is at least as important anyway.

I don't think upper body strength is really an issue with the ability to go ultra light these days. I do agree that the mental aspect is important. Thinking about it though, the mental aspect of the day in/day out training for a marathon has similarities to thru-hiking.

[Petr]

Now you are being like a certain poop-packing lawyer.

Ouch...I deserved that.

[madizazzo]

Take it an old man: "You can't teach someone something they already know."

And it's corollary: "NEVER offer unsolicited advice."

mike d

[Trailbender]

FORMER Marine not ex. i'm not as lean and not as mean but i'm still a Marine

Same here, only I was Army. You never really stop being a soldier.

[Tinker]

My stubborn marathon running brother wants to hike the trail , no need for training- he says.How do I convince him using technical info that it's not the same? not the same muscles, tendons, pressure, feet, toes? it must be almost professional advice, he's stubborn ...

He's right.

Using the same shoes and a lightweight pack he should have no trouble (unless he's afraid of dirt and/or bugs ).

[Tinker]

i'm running a 16 mile trail race this saturday. what's a reasonable finishing time?

Uh, tell us how you do.
Glad you're around to do it!