Is joining the Appalachian Mountain Club a good idea?

[weary]

I know better than to argue with Weary about anything, but since he asked: My involvement with the Club began in earliest childhood, many members of my family were members of long standing; my father was active in the Club in the thirties and forties and helped build some of the present Huts. I lived in downtown Boston for many years and was in and out of the Joy St. headquarters more often than I can remember, primarily to use the Library. My involvement with the Boston chapter ended when I realized it was essentially a social/romantic Club for lonely singles. (Also, the quality of white wine served at Club social was generally poor). My active involvement with the Club ended years ago when I got to see how money was spent at Joy St., and even more so, when I saw what the Club's efforts were in the Whites, especially as regarding their insistence on spending so much time, effort, money, and manpower catering to a tiny fraction of the people who visited the Whites.
I disagree with Weary's description of the Highland Center. It's also interesting to see that Weary acknowledges the Highlands rates are out of his price range. That's exactly my point, Weary. They're way out of most people's price range. This is why I describe the place as exclusive and elite. "Elitist", by definition, means secective, private, and exclusive. I'm failing to see why Weary has a problem with my use of the word "elite." .

Well, partly because elite refers to folks considered socially superior -- not secretive, private and exclusive. Neither I nor Jack consider the old time AMC'ers "socially superior." I always considered them socially inferior, basically jerks.

It's also amusing to see Weary tell us that the Highland center was paid for primarily thru a capital fund drive and major donations. Well, I couldn't care if it was paid for by the King of Bulgaria. Instead of using this as an excuse for its construction, I think we should instead ask why it was built at all. .

Well I agree it probably should not have been built at all. But it's the kind of thing that rich people will donate to and since now it is there, AMC will gradually find some useful role for it. Probably another Pinkham Notch. I don;t think anyone ever claimed AMC was omniscient. Rich people, even elites, make mistakes, like the rest of us.

If the AMC is capable of carrying out major capital fund drives, or if it has that many deep-pocket donors, then I respectfully submit that there are a lot of things better to do with these funds than build a luxury facility....

Yeah, but not necessarily things that will raise a lot of money.

even Weary admits is not fullfilling its original financial goals, which sounds to me like he's saying that it's not making much, or any money. .

Actually, I'm not saying any such thing. I don't know what the goals were. Someone did tell me that recently they were about the only people there.

I can also understand why it's easy for Weary to crtizicize those of us who
no longer wish to be members or support the Club with membership dues....I seem to remember that Weary acknowledged that he posesses a lifetime membership and has not, in fact, paid dues in many years. Perhaps if he had been doing so , he'd be more concerned with what was being done with his money..

Actually, I think the dues are being spent wisely as near as I can tell. I also contribute in kind far more than the dues would cost. I haven't collected any money in years for all the paper, ink cartridges and other stuff I buy to produce the Maine Chapter newsletter.

Nor do I criticize anyone for failing to be a member. I do criticize those who use information from the past to convince new people not to join, which was the question that began this thread.

Yes. AMC was, at least by my standards, kind of elitist in the past. But as Jack pointed out, he quit because it had evolved some time ago into largely a social club with bad wine.

Well, it obviously is still evolving. I haven't checked the quality of the wine, but it maintains virtually all the important trails in the Whites. More, importantly, the club is a major, and badly needed environmental voice in the northeast. And it is expanding to protect very important lands in Maine.

My point is simple. What AMC was, is not important. What it is, is important. And that is a major environmental voice that increasingly needs to be heard and supported.

Weary

[smokymtnsteve]

"The function of an ideal is not to be realized but, like that of the North Star, to serve as a guiding point"

THANKS BE TO ABBEY

[weary]

"The function of an ideal is not to be realized but, like that of the North Star, to serve as a guiding point"

THANKS BE TO ABBEY

I'm willing to let Abbey have the last word!

[smokymtnsteve]

I'm willing to let Abbey have the last word!

""One final paragraph of advice: Do not burn yourself out. Be as I am-a reluctant enthusiast... a part time crusader, a half-hearted fanatic. Save the other half of yourselves and your lives for pleasure and adventure. It is not enough to fight for the land; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it is still there. So get out there and mess around with your friends, ramble out yonder and explore the forests, encounter the grizz, climb the mountains. Run the rivers, breathe deep of that yet sweet and lucid air, sit quietly for a while and contemplate the precious stillness, that lovely, mysterious and awesome space. Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to your body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound people with their hearts in a safe deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards." "


THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

[peter2003]

It has interesting reviewing the various points of interest concerning the AMC (Applachian Money Club). I probable have been a member for 15-20 years and have had to deal with the good vs bad (my view) of the organization for a number of years. Yes, I totally agree with Jack that the Executive Director and other Executive salaries are totally out of balance for an environmental organization that I want to be a part of. However, the AMC does a good job with trail maintenance and stewardship so in the past I have continued to pay my dues to support this part of the organization. I reside in Vermont and do not participate in many AMC activities and don't view the AMC as real important to me. When I received my dues renewal this year the cost had gone up $40.00 to $50.00, a large 25% price increase. At the $40.00 level I had a difficult time in justifying renewal; at the $50.00 level it makes no sence for me based in a large part of the excessive executive salaries lodging policies. Friends of mine in the past have confirmed that the ED salary is not that much lower than the presidents.

Hence, the AMC has lost another long time member; I wonder how many of us there are based in part of the large dues increase.

I also agree that the AMC headquarters should be moved to the north country where most of the AMC operations and activities are located.

I thru hiked the AT in 2003 and passed a number of huts but stayed in none of them although the crew offered work for stay a number of times. There are many places to steal camp in the white's even in the Southern and Northern Presidentials.

vtpete03

[weary]

""One final paragraph of advice: Do not burn yourself out. Be as I am-a reluctant enthusiast... a part time crusader, a half-hearted fanatic. Save the other half of yourselves and your lives for pleasure and adventure. It is not enough to fight for the land; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it is still there. So get out there and mess around with your friends, ramble out yonder and explore the forests, encounter the grizz, climb the mountains. Run the rivers, breathe deep of that yet sweet and lucid air, sit quietly for a while and contemplate the precious stillness, that lovely, mysterious and awesome space. Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to your body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound people with their hearts in a safe deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards." "


THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Thanks for the reminder. As the years go by, I find increasing satisfaction in knowing that some things I am doing will long outlive me. But I am constantly aware of Abbey's precaution.

After a quarter of a century, I'm giving up my MATC trail maintenance assignment, albeit, reluctantly. Physically, I can do it. Physically, those who have worked with me can't. But they will feel obligated to continue if I do.

I see daily growing evidence that the mortality of humans is 100 percent. That means the institutions need fresh ideas if they are to continue. And besides, me and my old ideas need a break.

Weary

[rickb]

FWIW, I stayed in the bunkhouse last night. Clean sheets. Nice fleece blankets. Hot showers. Price included and AYCE breakfast with coffee, milk, juices, pancakes, french toast, muffins, bagels, breads,hot and cold cereals, bacon and sausage, eggs, homefries and the like.

The elitist cost $23. Oh well, sometime you have to live large.

Because of code issues, cooking in the bunkhouse is limited to a microwave, but I was told there's no problem with using stoves outside.

FWIW, there is a world-class photo exhibit next door, worthy of a stop even if you dont have the coin to stay. It is free as are the headphones.

Rick B

[The Old Fhart]

Jack Tarlin-"This thread is aging fast, and the arguments are growing repetitive, so I'll keep my comments relatively brief:
Fhart asked me to qualify my comment "I applaud what the local clubs and the volunteers are doing." Gee, I thought that was pretty straightforward, but let's try it again: I applaud the efforts of the local clubs, especially when it comes to trail and facilities maintencance; I especially value the work of any and all volunteers. Was that sufficiently clear?"

Jack, I trust the above is intended as an attempt at humor because what you just said is “the arguments are growing repetitive” and then you immediately repeat the same thing you posted before, almost word for word without clarifying anything.

PLEASE read what I actually wrote and address the question I asked. I did NOT, I repeat, I did NOT, ask you to qualify any statement, never used the word, never intended that meaning. Where we are only talking about the AMC in this post I asked that you, plainly and simplely, state that when you use the nebulous terms “club” and “volunteers” you actually mean, or even include “local AMC chapters.” It looks like you go out of your way to “qualify” your statement by excluding AMC local chapters or are trying to deny their existence as a positive part of the AMC.

To not use the proper terminology make it look like you view the AMC out of Joy Street and the local AMC chapters as a single unit which you despise, or you do not understand the distinction between the two groups. The entire AMC is the “club” and it has about a dozen local chapters, they are not clubs. I realize you loathe the AMC, and a lot of us feel the same way, but can’t you bring yourself to say: “I hate Joy Street but I appreciate the work that the local AMC chapters do and admire their work and dedication.” Just admit that there are two parts of the AMCs, like the force, light side, dark side. It is ok to use “AMC”, “volunteer”, and “appreciate” in one sentence, it won’t kill you.

[Jack Tarlin]

Geeez, Fhart, I know you're in your dotage, but I didn't think you'd grown completely simple.

I'm obviously aware of the distinction between Joy St. and the efforts of folks in the local clubs. And I've never had a problem acknowledging this.

To directly repeat a line from my last post: "I applaud the efforts of the local clubs, especially when it comes to trail and facilities maintenance."

I'm sorry if Fhary feels the need to point out that I'm repeating myself, but perhaps if people had the sense and reading comprehension to understand why I said in the first place, the repitition wouldn't be necessary.

But Fhart wants me to use the words "volunteer" and "appreciate" in the same sentence. Fine. I guess using "volunteer" and "applaud" wasn't good enough. So here goes: "I greatly appreciate the efforts of the local clubs, especially when it comes to trail and facilities maintenance."

Everybody happy? Let's move on.

[The Old Fhart]

Jack, you're either completely missing the point or trying to go out of your way to avoid using the proper terminology. If you said "the Red Sox scored 4 goals" (or touchdowns) you would either be displaying a total lack of knowledge of the game of baseball or knowingly going out of your way to not use the proper term, which is "runs".

There are no local AMC clubs-period. They are "local AMC chapters", which are part of the AMC. Please tell me if there is something wrong with you that prevents you from using the correct terminology. Do you so hate the AMC that you can't stand the thought of saying "local AMC chapters"?

You claim to have read the AMC Outdoors publication. Go to any issue and tell me what headings for the hike listings say. In bold black outlined type at the top of the pages it says: "NEW HAMPSHIRE Chapter Activities", for example. It does not say club because they aren’t clubs.

You continue to misrepresent what I have clearly said. I said

It is ok to use “AMC”, “volunteer”, and “appreciate” in one sentence, it won’t kill you.

But you misquote me by saying:

But Fhart wants me to use the words "volunteer" and "appreciate" in the same sentence.

Why can’t you even quote me correctly? Your censorship tries to distort what I actually said by intentionally dropping the “AMC” from my quote.

If you want to appear like you have some reading comprehension and intelligence, in your next post, 1) quote what I said exactly without your “AMC” editing, 2) Look at AMC Outdoors and copy (and post) exactly what it says at the top of any of the AMC CHAPTER ACTIVITIES page. If you can’t do a simple cut-and-paste of what I actually said, if you can’t copy exactly what it says in AMC Outdoors, if you can’t use the proper terminology, your hatred of the AMC puts you beyond all reason and logic.

[MOWGLI]

Jack, you're either completely missing the point or trying to go out of your way to avoid using the proper terminology. If you said "the Red Sox scored 4 goals" (or touchdowns) you would either be displaying a total lack of knowledge of the game of baseball or knowingly going out of your way to not use the proper term, which is "runs".

I don't know Old Fhart. I think this quote from Jack does show "a total lack of knowledge of the game of baseball";

There are also flights from Canada, but Boston seems much easier, plus it's a great place to visit. Hotel rooms might be a problem in October, tho, as the local baseball team will almost certainly be again participating in the World Series.

The Sox haven't won a World Series in 86 years (and counting) and it sure ain't gonna happen this year! Go Yanks!

[Jack Tarlin]

Mowgli---

That was actually pretty funny. It's also gratifying that you pay so much attention to my posts that you saved one from quite some time ago. Gosh, I never knew you cared..... Oh, and the season isn't over yet. While you choose to worship at the feet of George Steinbrenner, I prefer the company of St. Jude; there are no causes quite so compelling as the lost ones!

And to my friend the Old Fhart who seems to be spewing even more noxious hot wind than his name would leave you to expect: You suggested I display some reading comp. and intelligence in my future posts; I agree with you entirely. I'm going to display some intelligence and common sense by withdrawing from this conversation. In a multitude of posts on this thread I was at great pains to state that any discussion of the AMC was not a black and white issue; I was at great pains to mention that the Club does a great deal of good. I mentioned several times that I applauded the work, especially the Trail work of volunteers.

You're evidently unhappy with my command of the language. You feel that
my hatred of the AMC puts me beyond all reason and logic, even tho I made any number of comments acknowledging that they did good work and that I applauded some of the club's efforts.

Ya know what? I'm not going to try and explain myself further, I can't really see the point. But you were right about one thing. It's time to show some intelligence. Some thru-hikers I know just walked into the Library. I think I'll do the smart thing and walk away from this ridiculous dialogue and go join them for a beer.

Plus, the Red Sox are on. Maybe I can watch some of the game so as to be a better conversationalist the next time I see Mowgli!

[weary]

Well, as one who as a cub city hall, sports, chief photographer, darkroom technician, sports columnist, police etc. reporter on a daily newspaper, that had me and a parttime person (if I were not newly politically correct, I would have said girl) put out a six day a week daily newspaper, I once had a baseball player sliding into "left" base. Therefore, I can appreciate the complexities of language for the uninformed.

I even covered the first football game I ever saw. (I found a 14-year-old to tell me what was happening. And I did a lot of faking.) So I recognize Jack's flounderings.

Whatever it was I was going to say, I've forgotten, but I do find this conversation fascinating -- sort of a Bush-Kerry exercise in non communication.

Weary

[TJ aka Teej]

Everything I know suggests that this, like some other TJ proclamations, is largely a figment of his imagination. TJ.

Once again Baghdad Bob shows why Joy St gave him an award for keeping his knowledge of the AMC's expansion into Maine from his fellow MAMC board members. He claimed he was "sworn to secrecy"... Right, Bob. Sure. Just can't admit you lied to your friends? He once called a post of mine 99% fictional, but then failed to prove any of it wrong. Heck, I've posted news about the trail in Maine that Weary's claimed I'd "made up", despite my providing the urls to the newspaper stories!! Weary, your act is getting stale. Open a window, dude.

[TJ aka Teej]

All logging is not bad..

I never said it was. My family has been in the lumber business in Maine and New Hampshire almost continually since 1650, starting with saw mills on the Little River in Exeter, NH right up until the fire of 1947 burned up our lumber yard in Lyman, Maine. We've since deeded land that was once woodlots away to the Laudholm Farm and the Rachel Carson preserves on the coast. I simply believe that some land should be/ must be/ needs to be set aside. Some people, thankfully a very insignificant few like Weary, want to settle for the clear cut leftovers. I think we should have higher goals.

Teej

[Blue Jay]

In bold black outlined type at the top of the pages it says: "NEW HAMPSHIRE Chapter Activities", for example. It does not say club because they aren’t clubs.

Ok, as usual when humans discuss something it starts out good then gets silly. After looking in several dictionaries the difference between Club and Chapter is almost nonexistent. One sounds more elitist, therefore Chapter is slightly more appropriate. You also have lodge and troop and on and on. To debate the merits of this is silly.

[MOWGLI]

I never said it was. My family has been in the lumber business in Maine and New Hampshire almost continually since 1650, starting with saw mills on the Little River in Exeter, NH right up until the fire of 1947 burned up our lumber yard in Lyman, Maine. We've since deeded land that was once woodlots away to the Laudholm Farm and the Rachel Carson preserves on the coast. I simply believe that some land should be/ must be/ needs to be set aside. Some people, thankfully a very insignificant few like Weary, want to settle for the clear cut leftovers. I think we should have higher goals.

Teej

Well Teej, you were doing great until those last two sentences. You are completely mischaracterizing Weary's views by making a charge like that. Weary should be commended for his efforts to protect land along the trail corridor in Maine. You and I are both aware that he is a Director with the Maine Appalachian Land Trust. http://www.matlt.org/ They do some very important work, and are worthy of our support.

[steve hiker]

My family has been in the lumber business in Maine and New Hampshire almost continually since 1650

Did they wear those funny Pilgrim costumes with the belt buckes on the hats?

[The Old Fhart]

Me-“If you want to appear like you have some reading comprehension and intelligence, in your next post, 1) quote what I said exactly without your “AMC” editing, 2) Look at AMC Outdoors and copy (and post) exactly what it says at the top of any of the AMC CHAPTER ACTIVITIES page. If you can’t do a simple cut-and-paste of what I actually said, if you can’t copy exactly what it says in AMC Outdoors, if you can’t use the proper terminology, your hatred of the AMC puts you beyond all reason and logic.”

Jack- "I'm going to display some intelligence and common sense by withdrawing from this conversation."

What makes this so pathetic is that Jack is always the first to call anyone on lying and distorting facts, but when it suits him to bash the AMC he resorts to the same sophomoric tactics. So what has he done when asked to use direct quotes and facts instead of his previous distortions? After deliberately misquoting me and being asked pointed questions he doesn’t want to, and can’t answer truthfully, he says he’s going to withdraw from the discussion. I guess if you have nothing constructive to say, that is what you should do. I wouldn’t have believed that he would be so biased, that he would stoop so low, all over the proper use of a few words. That was a really pitiful display you put on, Jack. I hope you know the others reading this thread are enjoying a good laugh about this right now.

Blue Jay- "Ok, as usual when humans discuss something it starts out good then gets silly. After looking in several dictionaries the difference between Club and Chapter is almost nonexistent. One sounds more elitist, therefore Chapter is slightly more appropriate. You also have lodge and troop and on and on. To debate the merits of this is silly."

For once we absolutely agree on something. And while there may not be a big difference between the term “club” and “local AMC chapter”, there is the fact that you call something by its proper precise name, unless you are trying to slur the intended meaning. I’m sure you would agree that there is a difference between “Bleu Jay” and “Blue Jay”, even thought the meaning is exactly the same.

This is so reminiscent of the US-French feud a while back where some idiotic US lawmakers wanted to rename "french fries", "freedom fries" because they didn't want to have to use any phrase with the word "french" in it.

[Blue Jay]

No, Bleu Jay is fine. Since there is a female Blue Jay this year I may change it, sounds kind of French.