The Analysis of Technique vs. What is Good, Right and Just in Given Philosophies

[twodifferentsocks]

PRELUDE AND CASE STUDY: Here's a prelude to my ramblings above, before I even knew the term "Ultralight". Last year, a buddy of mine was in a jam, and couldn't fill a guide spot for a trip he was involved with. They needed a guide to lead a dozen 11th graders on a four day trip through Pisgah National Forest. There were 10 other groups from this private high school, all from Raleigh. I was in between projects at the time, but had never guided before, except for my own trips with friends. In general, it was great fun, but here was my introduction to UL arrogance:

Example 1: Night 1, we camped in a campsite large enough to accommodate our large group, but the area was bad with biting flies. My Co-leader asked to share my tent, opting out of her tarp. I felt proud, sort off. It seemed after years of slogging away in the sugar mines of commerce, that I still had sound and relevant backcountry skills. It felt good to be in the woods, and felt better to best this young woman. She was a real pro after all, looked the part too. I gladly shared it, I though I might get laid out of the deal

Example 2: I heard from 3 other guides, one of them my friend and the co-leader of my group, that "they don't make 'em like that anymore" in reference to my pack, a 18 or so year old NF internal frame. Day 3, the stitching and fabric in her brand new pack disintegrated, causing the frame rods to poke through the back. I inspected it, and quietly noted to myself that a lightweight ripstop backpack is not for me.

Example 3: A student had evidently put on some perfume, or lotion or something, but she was being absolutely terrorized by flies, and was nearly hysterical. My co-leader "does this **** for a living" expert, offered no solutions. I produced a head net, which the student quickly declined, saying she would take the flies over looking stupid. I remember the look my co-leader gave me when I produced the head net. It was one of a string of solutions I had provided, that she could not. After all, it was early May in NC, why would anyone carry a head net? After a particularly traumatic experience with yellow flies in the Chesapeake bay years before, I never went without one. But why the bother of deciding to have it, it's just a headnet, not a television.

Example 4: Neither of us (the other guide and I) had time to scout the route before hand, so neither of us knew EXACTLY where the trail heads were. I agreed to hike 2 or 3 miles ahead after the kids fell asleep to find them. Her torch lacked the capacity to navigate in the dark. Oh she could walk, but she couldn't see far enough to spot reflective trail markers in the dark. So I say her torch lacked the capacity to navigate. This is of course, after she wonkishly commented that mine was the largest headlamp she had ever seen. A Petzyl Duo was the shiznit in my day, but to her it was simply ****. I say her torch was ****, because if one of those kids needed to be evacuated, her lamp lacked the capacity to do so safely. Unacceptable.

I spent the entire week pretrip and posttrip cleanup getting needled and questioned by my fellow guides for the state of my approach and gear. It confused me...my approach was cutting edge in 1997. Why were they going on and on about it? They went on about how heavy it all must be, but I didn't even notice the weight. Didn't even notice, after all we were on a backpacking trip. We were supposed to have stuff in our backpacks.

That was my first experience with the UL drones. If I wasn't such a head-suck, follower-slave, I should've recognized it for what it was, before making an ass out of myself here today.

[Jester2000]

Ahhh, I get it now. You're upset because you didn't get laid.

[Mags]

Ahhh, I get it now. You're upset because you didn't get laid.

Esp when he makes comments like this:

she wonkishly commented that mine was the largest headlamp she had ever seen.\

[Jester2000]

Esp when he makes comments like this:

she wonkishly commented that mine was the largest headlamp she had ever seen.\

Hahaha! SOF -- we're just having fun. You do have good points, and I've posted similar ideas in the past, particularly in regards to the inexperienced going UL gear-wise when they don't know what they don't know.

[twodifferentsocks]

Ahhh, I get it now. You're upset because you didn't get laid.

You got it! She was freaky hot too. Long, wonderful raft-guide-tan legs. You know the kind

[chief]

Ahhh, I get it now. You're upset because you didn't get laid.

You know what they say, "big headlamp...small pecker"!

[Mags]

Hahaha! SOF -- we're just having fun. You do have good points, and I've posted similar ideas in the past, particularly in regards to the inexperienced going UL gear-wise when they don't know what they don't know.

Aye..but my argument is that is NOT about gear. It is about people being inexperienced and not being prepared regardless of the gear. And blaming gear of any stripe ignores the real reason why people get into trouble: Not doing their research, not having the knowledge and getting themselves into trouble beyond their ability levels.

Heavy gear..light gear..or in between.

And the OP (lets call him Sock Puppet..maybe?) keeps on saying that these people are being lead into something that is dangerous. But it dangerous because well..."Not doing their research, not having the knowledge and getting themselves into trouble beyond their ability "
levels. "

As I said, I don't see much form or substance in the rants. What is the point? People will go off unprepared into the woods? Well..JHC..what an insight!

Ain't nothing to do with gear. It is lack of knowledge and experience (and in the leaders case..arrogance).

As in other threads, I think I'll stop while I am ahead..I am doing something I tend to do on here and in real life: Repeating myself.

I'll just leave with this sentence of gear wisdom from my trip report earlier today:

For those hoping to find a detailed description of the gear I took during the shoulder season hiking…go elsewhere. Backpacking is not about what gear you take, what titanium widget works best or if I footnote my gear choices with the proper attributes from the gear manufacturer. I just hike with the gear that I know works for me.


(OK..I did take some apple brandy. Made in New Jersey. One of the oldest distillers in the country! That’s MY kind of thorough research. I am qualified to endorse it because I think it tastes good.. )

[Jester2000]

Mags, I agree. There's nothing in the description of the trouble the girl got herself into to suggest that she would have made better decisions if she had had different gear.

And I've already mentioned how I feel about weighing personal experience against advice from unknown people.

People make bad decisions all the time. Some of those involve gear. Not all of those involve weight.

[Tipi Walter]

That's a pretty good story and one disproving the old adage: "If you don't use a piece of gear every day, don't take it."

It's hard to make miles and carry a lot of weight, this is just the reality of backpacking. And if you read many Trail Journals you'll see the strong tendency of "expert backpackers" telling the newbs to lighten their loads or else. This often happens near an outside hook-scale where the reality of pack weight hits home, with snickers from the observers. And let's face it, if you want to get from Georgia to Maine in the prescribed time, the weight must go.

In the old days(i.e. 1970s Eric Ryback), no one cared what you carried except yourself, there wasn't the commercial zeal(and testosterone-fed cutting edge types)to study ALL THINGS LIGHT as there is today. In one of his trail journal reports, Ryback mentioned loading up his pack with 20 days worth of food for a section of the AT he was thruhiking. He wrote that his 65lbs made him feel safe and he liked the security. There were people who shared the trail with him at that time who had very light packs and I'm thinking of people like Andrew Giger and Jim Shattuck. (Howard Bassett carried a boy scout canvas frameless Yucca pack with no hipbelt).

Nowadays in the age of gossamer dyneema and titanium widgets, it's considered avant-garde and upper class to have the lightest, latest stuff, a case in point is the near-crazed lemming rush-to-the-sea NeoAir hypnosis. $150 for a 9oz pad when a new $29 pad with an even higher Rvalue weighs only 6 more ounces. It's partly an ego-puffing fascination with the latest names and specs, who has the lightest sheet of tyvek, what's in the works for bubble wrap, etc. What I can't figure out is, why do these people even keep their teeth when all 32 could be pulled and thereby they could save several ounces of bothersome weight. Just eat gruel.

[The Weasel]

Move the thread to the humor forum.

TW

[Tipi Walter]

Move the thread to the humor forum.

TW

What, for one sentence?

[rickb]

Its a good thread.

[JoeHiker]

I find your laissez-fair criticism equally disturbing. This woman acted stupidly. You are apparently criticizing all of ultralight because of a foolish woman who made foolish decisions. Including continuing to hike on around 10,000 feet in the middle of a snowstorm in terrain she knew was going to remain around that altitude. Including not knowing apparently how to set up her own gear.

I don't take responsibilty for foolish people. Put this woman in the same situation with a 5 pound tent and you get the same dangerous moment.

[Tipi Walter]

I find your laissez-fair criticism equally disturbing. This woman acted stupidly. You are apparently criticizing all of ultralight because of a foolish woman who made foolish decisions. Including continuing to hike on around 10,000 feet in the middle of a snowstorm in terrain she knew was going to remain around that altitude. Including not knowing apparently how to set up her own gear.

I don't take responsibilty for foolish people. Put this woman in the same situation with a 5 pound tent and you get the same dangerous moment.

This happens all the time on the AT, they just hitch out to town. Maybe the PCT is more remote and harder to escape?

[Yahtzee]

Not sure what the problem with UL hiking is here. I would recommend going light to any newcomer. Why carry a 5 pound pack when a Go-Lite Jam, which weighs a little over 1 pd., carries up to 30 comfortably? Why carry a 3.5 pd. sleeping bag when you can, if you can afford it, carry a much lighter down bag? Why carry a 3-4pd tent when you can carry a tarptent? UL refers to gear and choices. If someone takes out too little clothing, that isn't UL's fault, it's the fault of the hiker.

And, IMO, UL hiking is much safer than heavier hiking. Easier on the body. Easier to hike longer miles. Plus, being burdened with a heavy pack can be a real drag on the psyche and can lead to poor decisions. This is all biased opinion, of course, but having carried a 40 pd pack and now carrying my 15pd pack, I say the lighter pack is safer.

UL is the way to go. Unless you really enjoy a particular piece of gear (for me its the MSR Dromedary with metal grommets) it just makes sense to carry lighter gear.

Poor decision making and UL hiking are in no way related.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, considering how many hikers I've encountered who put themselves at risk thru poor decision making in an attempt to go lightweight or ultra-lightweight, (i.e. carrying inappropriate or insufficient gear), I'd say these two subjects are very much related.

[Yahtzee]

Actually, considering how many hikers I've encountered who put themselves at risk thru poor decision making in an attempt to go lightweight or ultra-lightweight, (i.e. carrying inappropriate or insufficient gear), I'd say these two subjects are very much related.

This totally discounts the numerous hikers who safely and enjoyably hike UL. Hikers with heavy packs make poor decisions and so do UL hikers. Has nothing to do with UL hiking, merely those who ineffectively do so. Maybe they attribute it to UL philosophy but the poor decision is theirs and theirs alone.

However, if it is the case that UL hiking is the cause of certain predicaments, to be fair, a whole helluva lot of knee problems should rightly be attributed to hikers' who fail to judiciously select their gear. To me though, it is the individual hiker's judgment that needs criticizing not a hiking philosophy.

[Alligator]

Concerning the woman's account linked in the opening post, I agree with several of the posters who think it was more mistakes in what she did and not the gear really. She definitely had a case of the umbles. The sandals though were probably a bad equipment choice, but I am not so familiar with the weather in that area.

1. She should have known how to set up her tarp without a fancy knot. I can set mine up pyramid style with a piece of rope having just loops on either end, along with the stakes and a trekking pole.

2. She ought to have carried a backup fire option, negligible weight really.

3. She didn't mention eating. It seems like she didn't have the internal fuel to keep warm.

4. While wool will still insulate when wet, keeping on her damp/wet wool pants was likely sucking heat out that she desparately needed. If you have enough stuff, sometimes you can dry a piece of clothing in camp under other dry gear but you have to make sure you have enough internal heat to do so.

I learned 3 and 4 the hard way as well, and have set up my tarp somewhat poorly a time or two.

She had a decent set of warm clothes plus a full rain shell, and a bivy along with the tarp.

[Dances with Mice]

I know a guy who carried a ton of ultralight gear.

[twodifferentsocks]

Mags, this isn't a gear related post. I thought we were talking methods or techniques or approaches. Methods require procedure and hardware. The discussion of methods must include the discussion of the hardwear, but that's not all of it.

I'm talking about methods, and their confusion with the philosophy that begat the methods. Methods can be measured and improved.
Plan
Do
Check
Act

The PDCA cycle is one way to improve methods. The military has a saying that's cool too although I forget it.

The philosophy, the rising chant of the masses to Go Light has been confused as a method.

My anger came from this: I pictured that young Co-leader I worked with last summer as the one nearly freezing to death on the PCT. It hurt me, personally, to read her journal entry, to see the look on her face (check the pictures). Endlessly optimistic, capable, young, strong but guided by principles that were NOT fulled explained, and in my anger I took it out on this forum, where I felt many of the principles that led her astray were also not fully explained. I felt bad for this girl, and her family.

Mags, your words have weight. Your resume is impressive and people listen when you speak. I do, I did (pre rant). You have the power to lead the ignorant and stupid astray, but big deal right, these people are going to **** up anyway. But this girl was not ignorant or stupid, nor was the girl I co-led that trip with. The girl in the Sierras was dynamic, intelligent, full of life and that life was nearly taken from her.

My argument and frustration is not about gear, it's about groupthink. The crux of my argument is "guilt through association", I know... it's weak. I struck out in anger, shock at what I read. The girl was not wise, but I felt she was led astray.

Read this entry from the woman's journal that got into trouble in the Sierra's:

http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=6266

Quote from the link above:
"So 2008 comes along and I joined a group of guys to winter camp in Northern Minnesota in February. These guys introduced me to backpackinglight.com (BPL), Henry Shires tarp tents, "ultralight" (UL) backpacking- they even talked about "super ultralight" (SUL) backpacking. It was see-the-light, aha, hallelujah, give me an amen kind of moment...I was converted-"

That quote was from the preparation portion of her PCT journal.

Now read this journal entry:
http://postholer.com/journal/viewJou...&entry_id=8688

Quote from the link above:
"This is the day I labeled "Snow Storm" but I like to refer to it in my mind as the "Day 38- The Day I Thought I Was Going to Die, Hit 911 and Made a Complete Ass of Myself."

We are responsible for our words in this life.