Long Trail Thru in January (2011)?

[Deadeye]

Mainly wondering, will I see people? I know sometimes people will do a bit of snowshoeing up there, etc.ee, but I'm assuming more for short day trips and not overnight, right?

Assume nothing! There will be plenty of day trippers and overnighters in certain parts, you might even run into others doing a thru, but your weekdays are likely to be alone.

[ShelterLeopard]

Shelter Leopard -- You have some interesting hiking plans. I admire your enthusiasm !!!

Thanks Jeff.

Shlep, you are just like my 19 yr old son.

No fear and no reality check, even with others that give advice to the contrary.

Guess it comes with learning lessons the hard way, as he is doing right now... it can't be talked about as you will not believe it...it must be experienced. That is what he is finding out.

And we have to sit back and painfully watch. And pray hard.

I wouldn't say no reality check, I am not a naive, wide eyed little girl skipping off to go snowshoeing, planning on doing 10 miles a day and sitting around camp, drinking hot chocolate, about to wander off on a LT thru in mid winter without preparation.

Although yes, I am sure I will learn some things the hard way. But who doesn't?

I may not have mentioned it here (I have another very similar thread going in which I'm also talking about winter camping, so I keep getting confused about what I've already posted), but I'm definitely planning on taking some heavy duty winter survival courses. At first I thought NOLS, but I may also look into the AMC courses, and we have a family friend who is an avalanche specialist, and may be willing to teach me a bit.

[Wolf - 23000]

ShelterLeopard,

Winter hiking the LT can be a very rewarding feeling, dangerous but also rewarding. I know, I've been frozen several times but still manage.

I would like to suggest this, hike the Long Trail in the summer first - tack it onto your AT thru-hike. I'm sure you can do it but more important it will give you an idea of what to expect and what to plan for. Some of the courses you are thinking of, you won't need.

Wolf

[Tinker]

Just wondering, do any people do a LT thru in January/ February? I was thinking of doing it after I do the AT this coming year.

On average, how much snow do you think covers the LT in January? I MUST have snow. Love it, love it, love it! I know that more snow= slower hiking, more tired, etc, but that is fine by me.

NOT asking about gear right now. I'll worry about hardcore winter gear when I'm done with the AT. Mainly wondering, will I see people? I know sometimes people will do a bit of snowshoeing up there, etc.ee, but I'm assuming more for short day trips and not overnight, right?

I won't tell you not to do it, it will probably only harden your resolve (I was 19 once [if I remember correctly! ]).

Your biggest burden will probably be the extra clothing you should be carrying on a multi day winter trip (everything gets wet from sweat, add in snow and rain - yes, it probably will). Boots are usually problematic, too. Leather boots eventually become saturated and frozen, Gore-tex is worthless on longer hikes as the saturated outer layer of the boot becomes a barrier to its breathability, and nylon and full-on plastic boots don't breathe - you'll need to remove the linings and sleep with them to keep them from freezing.
You will travel MUCH more slowly (I'd say an average of 4-6 miles/day - maybe a little more in the southern section), and, of course, the days are shorter (psychologically making the nights much longer than they actually are - which is LONG and LONELY. It's not likely you'll meet many people during the weekdays and nights except at road crossings.
Bring vapor barrier socks to keep your insulative socks dry (or, driER).
Start from the south. A few days there will give you a taste of what you're in for without the climbs you'll find farther north.
I, personally, wouldn't try the traverse over Mt. Mansfield without at least an ice axe and crampons (crampons should be on your pack any time winter hiking takes a turn upwards or downwards), and I don't think I'd do it alone. If you do go ahead and attempt the hike, please don't attempt this section solo.
I'd also start the hike with someone experienced in winter hiking in the Northeast mountains. The closest I ever came to death was during an attempt to climb the Bigelows (Maine) when it began to rain midday over four feet of snow. Luckily I had the sense to bail out as I figured I'd never make it to the shelter (gone now) before nightfall and there wasn't any place level in between. I was in my 40s then. The incident instilled a healthy fear of winter climbing in me. I rarely attempt any demanding climbs alone any more.

[Bearpaw]

Consider a trail where you can be remote, experience tough climbs, lose the sheer depth of snow you'll have on the LT, but also lose the built-in safety of shelters and warming huts. Take a look at the Benton MacKaye Trail.

Start at Davenport Gap on the north edge of the Smokies. Begin with a 4000 foot ascent that will remind you of a treed-in Katahdin. Expect snow (and ice) at higher elevations. Continue south for 300 mile until you finish on top of Springer Mountain again.

Along the way, you'll pass only two shelters, several wilderness sections with no blazes, steeper climbs than the AT generally offers, and more than any thing else, plenty of very real solitude.

You'll see a handful of folks in GSMNP, but after that first 100 miles, expect almost nobody. 200 miles alone. In often sub-freezing conditions. Even without multiple feet of snow, this should still be well outside your comfort zone. It would be a great time to reflect on what your thru-hike has meant as well as what you'll do next.

And you may even have the feeling of "closing the loop" or "returning to the scene of the crime" as you hike over Springer and head back down to Amicalola one more time.

[ShelterLeopard]

Thanks Bearpaw- I actually really like the sound of that idea.

And thanks Tinker- crampons are definitely on the list. But I'm not worrying about winter gear until I get back from my thru. Though I do want to think about this a little bit (just to store in my head for when I feel like planning the next), I really want to focus on my thru, especially in terms of gear.

Wolf- I thought about that. Just so I'd be completely familiar with the terrain at least during one type of weather. We'll see what I do.

[Donde]

Shlep I think that sounds like an awesome follow up to your thru, **** maybe maybe you'll see me out there after mine. Based on the weather information available you are going to be dealing with some nasty ****. gear will be a huge factor, gore-tex is your new best friend consider a multi layer nesting sleep system like the ECWSS. and some pressurized "mickey mouse boots". That being said it can be done, and don't overthink gear. think about training principles like COLD (CleanLooseLayersDry) even more. Hydration is a big issue in that enviroment cause you don't want to pound cold water but you should. SOme training courses will help but sometimes you finish some serious "cold weather and mountaineering" training with the impressions that you froze for 3 weeks and got a cute piece of paper, the end ( thanks Mountain Leaders Course 10ID). YOur plan sounds like one that will need a fair bit of prep but is completely doable for the prepared and commited.

Athos

[white_russian]

Shlep I think that sounds like an awesome follow up to your thru, **** maybe maybe you'll see me out there after mine. Based on the weather information available you are going to be dealing with some nasty ****. gear will be a huge factor, gore-tex is your new best friend consider a multi layer nesting sleep system like the ECWSS. and some pressurized "mickey mouse boots". That being said it can be done, and don't overthink gear. think about training principles like COLD (CleanLooseLayersDry) even more. Hydration is a big issue in that enviroment cause you don't want to pound cold water but you should. SOme training courses will help but sometimes you finish some serious "cold weather and mountaineering" training with the impressions that you froze for 3 weeks and got a cute piece of paper, the end ( thanks Mountain Leaders Course 10ID). YOur plan sounds like one that will need a fair bit of prep but is completely doable for the prepared and commited.

Athos

Good ideas in the army does not always good ideas in real life.

ECWSS, give me a break, 8 lbs 11 oz. Western Mountaineering is more like it. A WM Puma GWS that will keep you warm guaranteed comfortable to -40 is 4 lbs 10 oz. If the ECWSS is anything like the MSS the -60 rating is extremely overrated and based more on a survival temp than a comfort temp.

[neighbor dave]

i will come out right now and say you won't make it as a through hike in winter.
have you ever hiked days on end in full winter conditions up here?
you'll be soaked to the bone no matter what kind of gear you have, you'll need to dry your stuff out routinely. breaking trail through fresh deep snow solo will have you going maybe 1 mile per hour at best.
some of the gaps are closed in winter, (i.e. ) no road access/longer hauls of food.
some if the wilderness areas have very poor blazing and you will get lost losing valuable time, and using your food supply up faster.
here's a shot of the l.t. near mount abraham, those snow laden branches are tough to dodge with a full pack.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/show...&cutoffdate=-1

another one;
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/show...&cutoffdate=-1

good luck!

[neighbor dave]

here's a good link for you to monitor;
http://www.nohrsc.nws.gov/interactiv...nt=0&js=1&uc=0

it's an "interactive weather chart". once you figure out how to use it, it'll be a great resource.
here's a great local weather page;
http://www.eotsweb.org/forecasts.php

as for gear, you'll need full winter gear, but more importantly, you'll need a strong will and desire to kep truckin', and a level calm head for when you get lost, and you will get lost, that's a guarantee

[Deadeye]

If you do this, head NOBO, you'll have a better chance of the blazes being visible (they'll be on the south facing side of trees, thereby getting more sun, and less of the windblown wet frozen snow that forms when a cold front blows through). Even then, many times you will know you're on trail more by the cut branches of trees and other signs of maintenance than by the blazes.

[Snowleopard]

Neighbor Dave, thanks for the weather link. Bearpaw, that Benton Mackay trail sounds interesting.

SL, just get out and do some local hiking or head up to NY (Catskills or Shawungunks, or Binghampton area). Do day hikes if you don't have sufficient equipment for winter overnights. Try renting snowshoes and try them out when there's significant snow. The more winter experience you can get the better, even for you AT thru. Learn how to layer your clothes so you don't overheat and sweat. Look up the local hiking clubs. Check the NY/NJ AMC chapter activities: http://trips.outdoors.org/

Here's a bit of winter reading to get everybody in the mood. It's the student handbook for the ADK and AMC winter school courses and has lots of good info:
http://www.winterschool.org/WMS%20St...20Handbook.pdf
Their courses are expensive these days, but excellent:
http://www.winterschool.org/program.html
Some of the Adirondack Mountain Club courses aren't too expensive:
http://www.adk.org/programs/programs.aspx

[Feral Bill]

Depending on the weather, (plenty of snow and no rain is nice) you could have excellent adventures in Harriman SP as preparation. It's near you and not much colder than the worst you might see see on your through.

The ADK course has around 30 pages of information on line that is very on target for Northeast winter conditions. If you take their class and practice skills in a more forgiving environment, you will greatly improve your chances of success on the LT. More important, you will improve your chances of living to tell about it.

[Wolf - 23000]

Hey Snowleopard,

It looks like you been doing some of your homework. I do hope you at least hike the LT once in the summer before attempting a winter sole trip and planning on what gear to take. It is a different ball game out there compare to anything you have done before. The Green Mountains I found to be much colder than the Adirondack Mountains where your planning on taking your classes. Once I got past MASS and into VT, It seem like a total different weather pattern of pure bitter COLDNESS. The mountains up there are not forgiving at all!!! I have a couple picture already posted when I did my winter hike of Maine/NH check them out.

I skimmed through some of what the classes MUST have equipment. Some of the stuff I could see you needing, others I would shy away from. Any kind of liquid used to put on your skin for example, I would suggest staying away from such as hand sanitizer, sunscreen or even second skin for blisters. The hand sanitizer and second skin would quickly become liquid ice crystals and the sunscreen would only get your face colder if it didn't freeze and do no good being underneath your face mask. Also having a metal spoon, could be a bit of a problem when it sticks inside your mouth.

Maps I would suggest carrying but not the once in the Long Trail book. You can use them as a guide but see about get more blown up maps to show the surrounding area. It doesn't have to be huge but something better than a skinny strip of where the trail is with little marking on what surrounding the area. If you do the Long Trail in the summer consider carrying a GPS and marking some of your locations ever couple of miles or so. It would make life a lot easier.

Wolf

[XCskiNYC]

....If you do the Long Trail in the summer consider carrying a GPS and marking some of your locations ever couple of miles or so. It would make life a lot easier.

Wolf

Just curious Wolf, you would not also suggest a GPS for winter? It seems with the trail snow covered and the problems you mentioned with blazes being snowed over that a GPS would be even more useful in winter than summer.


SL -- not to dissuade you from the winter LT hike idea, but here's another option that looks fun and it would give you a chance to work out your winter camping skills while avoiding the high rates at the quaint inn$ along the way:

http://www.catamounttrail.org/

[Snowleopard]

Hey Snowleopard,

It looks like you been doing some of your homework. I do hope you at least hike the LT once in the summer before attempting a winter sole trip and planning on what gear to take. It is a different ball game out there compare to anything you have done before. The Green Mountains I found to be much colder than the Adirondack Mountains where your planning on taking your classes. Once I got past MASS and into VT, It seem like a total different weather pattern of pure bitter COLDNESS. The mountains up there are not forgiving at all!!! I have a couple picture already posted when I did my winter hike of Maine/NH check them out.

I skimmed through some of what the classes MUST have equipment. Some of the stuff I could see you needing, others I would shy away from. Any kind of liquid used to put on your skin for example, I would suggest staying away from such as hand sanitizer, sunscreen or even second skin for blisters. The hand sanitizer and second skin would quickly become liquid ice crystals and the sunscreen would only get your face colder if it didn't freeze and do no good being underneath your face mask. Also having a metal spoon, could be a bit of a problem when it sticks inside your mouth.

...
Wolf

Wolf, don't forget there are two Leopards on this thread. I'm SnowL. and I'm about a half century older than ShelterL. ShelterL. is the one hoping to thru the LT in winter. I'm getting old to thru-hike the LT in winter and don't think I'd try it alone. I might try some sections of the LT or AT this winter (2 or 3 day hikes), if I can get my winter equipment in order.

A lot of my experience is pre-global warming, so I'm pretty familiar with cold.

The winter school lists are a good starting point, but I think it's possible to go much lighter. I took the winter mountaineering course a long time ago at Pinkham Notch and had a lot of fun in it.

GPS: I think this would be helpful in winter if you had some waypoints for the trail. I don't think anyone should rely on GPS; you need maps and compass.

[Wolf - 23000]

[quote=XCskiNYC;932635]Just curious Wolf, you would not also suggest a GPS for winter? It seems with the trail snow covered and the problems you mentioned with blazes being snowed over that a GPS would be even more useful in winter than summer. ]

XCskiNYC,

Just the reverse. I would suggest using a GPS first in the summer to get all the necessary points when the trail is really easy to follow. After all the points are stored they can be used while hiking the trail in the winter. A GPS has its limitations. It will give you your current location but you need to know where is the next point in order to help you route find.

I did something similar when I winter hiked Maine. I dropped off food catches at the road crossings and marked my spot with my GPS. It make the trip a lot easier. When your hiking in temperatures well below 0, the last thing you want to do is stop to figure out where the trail is.


Wolf

[Wolf - 23000]

Snowleopard,

Thank you for correcting me in confusing you with shelterleopard. I'm sure you do have a lot of experience in hiking in the COLD New England winter. I love to be out there myself too away from all this heat. It been a while sense I've did a real serious winter hike.

My idea with using a GPS to get the point, I guess I needed to explain a little bit more. My idea is hike the long trail first in the summer, record all the points to be used when hiking the trail in the winter.

As for the schools, they maybe of some help depending on the instructor and his/her experience. The problem I have with many schools is the instructors are book smart meaning they tell you do things one way strictly because the course requires them to do so or a book written 20 years ago said it was a good idea. Some of those ideas can do more harm than good.

Wolf

[ShelterLeopard]

I figured what you meant about the GPS Wolf (about entering the points while you can actually see them). My grandmother has been just dying to get me a GPS for oone of my long hikes, and I may actually let her for the LT.

Thank you all for your advice, it has been really helpful!

Honestly, who knows what this trip'll be? It may end up being a two week thing, maybe I'll go the whole way (but who knows how long that'll take!).

I really do love the snow and bitter cold- I do also understand how awful it can be to have cold feet, wet and frozen gear, no real way to dry and defrost everything, and all that. But, I'm not actually planning the actual trip or the gear right now, just starting to think about it. And you all have given me a lot to think about- thanks!

And I will most definitely be taking several winter survival classes.

[Lone Wolf]

i lived at the north end of the LT for 10 winters. brutal-ass weather up there. if you ain't got experience you shouldn't attempt this