Hayduke Dreams

[Father Dragon]

So, I'm planning to do a major trip in a couple of years and am very interested in doing the Hayduke... okay I'm in bed at night dreaming about it ...

I noticed the website strongly advises that one have a lot of experience with desert hiking. I have a little but I wouldn't say I'm "very experienced" in that environment.

So...

I'm very good with a map and compass.
I'm in good shape and plan on getting in even better shape
I've got good rock scrambling skills (with pack)
I know quite a bit about the dangers and how to avoid them (flash floods, lightning, dryfalls, death in general ...)


I've read some trail journals and trip reports and it doesn't sound all that bad ... anyone here ever done it or part of it? Is it something a person with good sense can do or does one really have to be an expert in desert/canyon travel?

I should also mention that it most likely will be a solo trip because I can't find people who are crazy like me. Why people don't think that hiking from Zion, to the North Rim, to Bryce, to Capital Reef, to Canyon Lands, and then to Arches is an amazing idea in itself is beyond me. Yes, I've been to every one of those places as with most of southern Utah and the whole four corners... so I know what that type of terrain/climate is like.

Should I stop dreaming and do something "safer"?

[Spirit Walker]

Have you read the guidebook yet? It gives a pretty good idea of what is involved. Also look up Brian Frankl's journal (at ULA-Equipment). He thruhiked the trail, wrote a good journal and has some information about resupply for thruhikers. The guidebook writers assume that you will set out water and food caches in the months before your hike or will have a friend with 4WD who can come out to meet you. Brian did some different routes in order to be self-sufficient and able to resupply along the way.

A few issues: 1) permits - the trail goes through several NPs where backcountry permits are required. 2) water - there are some 40-50 mile waterless stretches 3) resupply 4) mileage - the book has sections where they recommend 5-9 miles a day. I don't know how realistic that is for an experienced long distance hiker. Yes navigation, walking in water and rock climbing will slow you down, but that slow? However, having hiked in Alaska, where the same kind of mileage is recommended, I understand why that might be the case 5) crossing the Colorado River - when I read their Grand Canyon portion of the route I knew I would be doing something different if I ever do the trail. 6) Navigation - as you know, figuring out which is the fourth side canyon is not always easy. Getting caught up in fingers of canyons can throw your day off completely. However, it sounds like you've had experience with this.

I would love to thruhike the Hayduke. I love the canyon country of southern Utah. I doubt I will ever do it. I don't rock climb, at all, and there are areas where it is necessary. However, I hope you can do the trail. It sounds like you have a fair amount of experience with the country and have some clue what you're getting into. I always worry when somebody who has never been outside the park trails says he wants to do the Hayduke. You might contact the guidebook authors and see if they know anybody else who is heading out there this spring. Definitely read Brian F.s journal. It is doable, but it will be a real challenge.

[Mags]

As an aside, most people who do the Hayduke Trail tend to make up their own route to avoid some of the waterless stretches, technical sections and other issues that are not conducive to a traditional thru-hike.


Dogwood here on WB did the trail last year. I'd PM if I were you for more deets. Andrew Skurka has a map pack online for his route if interested as well. Check out Trauma's site, too:
http://www.justinlichter.com/pasttrips/hayduke.html

[trailangelbronco]

I hiked part of it last year. I also go 4-wheeling and spend alot of time in Southern Utah. Hot assed days, not much water. Or, too much water all at once. Flash Floods kill people in the canyons almost every year. It is beautiful, though.

Another possibilty could be the Centennial Trial in Idaho. Once you hit the Sawtooths, it is some beautiful country and lotz of water.

[Dogwood]

Hayduke 09. One of the most challenging thru-hikes I've done, for so many reasons. Of all the thru-hikes I've done the Sierra High Route and Hayduke Tr provided the most solitude and very real risk of getting injured, getting lost, and not being found! I met one other person attempting a thru-hike of this trail in nearly 900 miles! This is big open country! I agree with the writers of the guidebook and the founders of the route "it is not a beginner's trail." I soloed both and am looking forward to when I can do them again in the reverse direction.

Why people don't think that hiking from Zion, to the North Rim, to Bryce, to Capital Reef, to Canyon Lands, and then to Arches is an amazing idea in itself is beyond me.

My exact thoughts and one of the main reasons I took on this hike. Incredibly scenic and undeveloped country! 6 national parks, several national forests, 1 national Recreation area, wilderness areas, 1 National Monument, etc etc etc. Opportunities for so many short side hikes and alternates!!! Kind of like the CDT was a few short yrs ago and to some extent still is. Awesome!

SpiritWalker hit many key issues. I concur with every comment in her post.

In addition to the skills you already say you possess, some thoughts: 1)you need to think on this route(not really a trail where you can turn off your mind and follow the white blazes, not even a trail for most of it, it is a route!), 2) I find it imperative that you have good map and compass skills, 3) it is imperative that you have Joe and Mitch's Hayduke Tr Guidebook, quality printed 7.5 min quads, and "larger picture" overview maps in case you find yourself off the quad maps, I had 7.5 min quads with Brian Frankel's and Trauma's(Justin Lichter's) routes and some overview Trails Illustrated maps(I got lost the one time I didn't have an overview map and needed one, wandering around the backcountry of Capitol Reef NP without a detailed overview map and no water was not a pleasant experience!), Skurka's SHR maps were very well done, easy to follow, and inexpensive, although Skura's Hayduke Tr maps were not available when I hiked the Hayduke, if they are anything like his SHR maps I advise GET THEM 4) resupply logistics can be cumbersome and often require hikes out to them, I dd the hike with no caches, some resupply opps have recently changed, I basically followed Frankel's resupply pts listed on the Hayduke website and amended it a bit 5) technical climbing skills or gear not required 6) hike in fall or spring, stay away from thru-hiking the Duke in summer, I thrued in spring

If really interested in the Duke, get the Guidebook and PM with any questions. I would be glad to assist another hiker. I would venture that less than 10 folks have thru-hiked the Duke for some good reasons. It's demanding.

[yappy]

On our Azt hike last year we met a couple hiking it and it was their first thru hike EVER ! they were having a great time and only had 2 weeks left. It didn't seem to be fazing them at all.

[Mags]

On our Azt hike last year we met a couple hiking it and it was their first thru hike EVER ! they were having a great time and only had 2 weeks left. It didn't seem to be fazing them at all.

I'm confused..you met a Hayduke Trail hiker...or an AZT hiker?

[skinewmexico]

Andrew Skurka's website has a good write up on his Hayduke Trail trip last year.

[Spirit Walker]

I think the Hayduke Trail follows the AZT for a stretch north of the Grand Canyon.

[yappy]

yeah that is right Spirit walker. We met them just North of the Canyon and they were having a high time ! It was cool to watch them. They were thrilled to be right THERE ya know.... we hadn't seen another long distance hiker for over 400 miles and we were as happy to see them as they were to see us. A nice memory... one of many on that trail. The Get sounds awesome too..

[The Will]

If you have good map and compass skills, as you say, then you can eliminate what would be the primary concern. Dogwood gave sage advice when he suggested getting the 7.5 minute maps as well as overview maps. The DeLorme topographical road maps work well for overview map use. If you're looking for a place to bail if you miss a water cache or for other reasons than these maps would fit that need perfectly. That is just my experience in other regions. I haven't done any of the Hayduke so by all means discount what I say a listen to those who have. I would ask those who have hiked it if they would recommend a GPS unit. Even if it is not necessary for navigation it could be very important in locating water and food caches.

That would be the second thing of importance: resupply.

Strange as it may sound I have always liked the analogy between desert travel and SCUBA diving. Both are physiologically insulting environments but as long as you have adequate air and stay within certain parameters then SCUBA diving is a very safe activity. In the desert as long as you have water (and a little sun protection) then everything is fine.

[yappy]

the gotta walkers did the centennial trail last year... another that would be amazing sounds like.

[Dogwood]

Yappy, if you are talking about 2009 there was only one couple attempting a Hayduke Tr thru-hike that I heard of or met. The man was actually attempting a thru-hike, that is hike the whole trail. The woman he was with got off the trail because she was bored. He continued to thru-hike. While she had little hiking experience the man had done thru-hikes before. I think I remember him thru-hiking the AT. I am fairly certain the woman did not go back and hike the missed sections because she totally relied on her partner to find the route. She may not have even got back on the Hayduke. She gave me a ride back to a Hayduke TH after I did a resupply.

Another woman was attempting a Hayduke Tr thru-hike who started near or in Arches NP about the same time as I started. She had helped me obtain trail info. We were exchanging Emails as we were hiking. She did some alternates, skipped sections, and eventually left the Hayduke before finishing to start a hike else where. I was sad to hear she got off the Duke. I still owe her a drink for her generosity and kindness. She had done thru-hikes before, including the CDT and PCT. At some pt just before she got off she hiked with another man who was doing some Hayduke sections. He also had thru-hiking experience. I believe they made it to where the AZT and Hayduke Tr coincide north of the Grand Canyon. I would say neither did a thru-hike.

These are the only ones I knew of or heard of thru-hiking or doing multiple sections.

The Hayduke Tr, which I'll say again, is very often just a route, not a trail. It was only first thru-hiked in 2006 by Brian Frankel(ULA founder) and Justin Lichter(Trauma). Both have extensive long distance hiking experience. Justin holds or did hold several hiking trail speed records. Even the creators of the Hayduke Tr and the writers of the Hayduke Guidebook have only section hiked the Hayduke and they used caches.

The Duke poses significant challenges to complete a continuous thru-hike. Indeed, it is not easy! The resupply info supplied by Frankel at the Hayduke website proved extremely valuable for my resupplies as I also did no caches.

This trail visits some very remote areas. In some places the only humans visiting the area are those who are hiking the route. In some places the only footprints one will see are the few hikers who have hiked or are hiking the Duke. At times, this is some remote hiking! On some sections, very rarely will you see anyone(see my above post). There are also a few TH registers where Haydukers would sign the register. In short order, it's easy to know who is on this route if anyone at all!

Yappy, didn't you sign the AZT northern terminus TH register at the Utah/Arizona stateline campground near Buckskin Gulch? I think I remember reading one of your entries there.

[Dogwood]

I'm not a big user of GPS, BUT on the Duke it could certainly help. I didn't carry one. Maybe, that could have prevented me from getting badly off route that one time in Capitol Reef NP. Even with a GPS, I think you need map and compass skills. And even with a GPS, maps, and compass you are sometimes going to have that "where the f*#k am I thought" more than once on this trail! It can be very disorienting when you have little or no visual when in the bottom of a canyon system with different side canyons going off in different directions in the middle of nowhere. GPS sometimes doesn't work in these places too! There is no one out there to ask directions! You are a self contained self sufficient unit! You got to think how to help yourself. Better make some good decisions too. Maybe, a SPOT would make some folks feel more secure.

There is an adage in desert hiking that holds true for the Duke. There is either too much water or not enough. You can have too much, like when you hike in the Escalante River for more than 20 miles, hike in and across the Dirty Devil River, or across the Colorado and Little Colorado Rivers, where you can drown in any one of them, or have to hike with no water for more than 40 miles with little or no shade out in the blazing hot open desert.

[Father Dragon]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I have ordered the guidebook and will be purchasing Skurka's trip bundle along with the Nat Topo software so I can plan my own routes too (seems like half the fun), as there are plenty of places that I will want to detour to, and I’m pretty sure I’ll want several alternative strategies to complete the sections as the situations merit. I’m looking at doing this in a couple of years so I’m thinking I will have plenty of time to research this endeavor, hopefully I might even find a few companions to make this trip with too.
I do not plan on doing this route with caches but plan on using resupply points, I just feel that burying something in the desert and hoping it will be there months later is risking a little too much. I’m also thinking that being that I’m not a long distance speed hiker that 3 ½ months will be a reasonable amount of time (I hike fast it’s just that I tend to mill around a lot looking at stuff with my mouth open … this will be made worse when I come across any type of archeological site… Anthropology/Archeology being my thing) and because of this, I will need to start in the fall and not the spring… I do not really want to be on the route in the summer time after all. So considering that, if anyone is interested in the Duke in a couple of years, hit me up.
Anyway, I’m sure I’ll have more questions when my planning material comes in. I’ll be posting more on this thread as I make plans so I can sanity check them and get ideas.

[Dogwood]

PM me if I can help in any way.

Lots of additional scenic sites to experience on this route. Personally, I added about 130 additional miles to the official Guidebook thru-hike because I felt the route missed some key scenic sites in the National Parks. Some absolutely jaw dropping scenic sections if you want to minimize amount of trail miles by just taking in smaller bites of the Duke.

I would say this is not a speed hiking trail. The navigation alone will slow anyone down. I'm not the fastest hiker, but I'm not the slowest. I like taking in the scenery and this trail has some AMAZING scenery. I make my miles by hiking long hours consistently day after day. Some days I pushed mid 20's but at other times, despite putting in a 14 hr day, I could barely make much more than 10 miles.

I like the heat. IMO, don't try a thru-hike of the Hayduke Tr in the summer!

I sometimes use the Delorme maps for the big pic. On this trail I think they would be of limited use because there are not many roads one crosses, the jeep roads will largely not be shown(some of these jeep roads can go 80 miles into the desert in Utah), and the Delormes are not topographical so they are not going to show if their are deep canyons blocking your way to an access road. Much of this trail is in deep canyon country.

[yappy]

hi dogwood, I can't remember there names but were in their late 20s I would say. I don't know if they finished or not but they did say they were thru hiking and had been out about 7 weeks if I remember right. I thought they said this was their first hike but I could be wrong. I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday soo... anyhow, they were having a fantastic trip and it got me thinking about that trail. That whole area is soooo fantastic. I could wonder around there for quite awhile..

[askurka]

I'll chime in here since I've done a good chunk of the HDT, developed a handbook-like resource for it afterwards, and have been mentioned a few times in those thread.

It's very difficult to say whether someone is "qualified" to do the HDT. Its basically a question of skills and past experience -- knowing how to use a map, how to resupply, how to find water (and how much water to carry until you find water again), etc. -- combined with one's own ambition and common sense. The number of people who manage to complete the AT with zero backpacking skills (that was me as of May 2002) is shocking, and I suspect that the same could happen on the HDT if someone gave it a shot. Of course, the more experienced/skilled you are, the safer you'll be, but you don't necessarily need to be safe in order to be successful. (Note: I'm not encouraging all newbies to go do the HDT, but I do encourage newbies to take with a grain of salt this notion of the HDT being too tough and you can't do it unless you have desert experience, unless you've hiked at least the AT and PCT, etc.).

If you're interested in doing the HDT, start with the free resources available: the http://www.hayduketrail.org website has a lot of good information; Ryan Choi did a nice blog, http://hayduketrail.blogspot.com; Dave and Michell have some good information too, http://outsideforever.com/2009-hayduke-trail. Following my 2009 trip I posted some FAQ's, pictures, and a video: http://www.andrewskurka.com/CANY09/index.php.

Brian Frankle's trip is no longer documented on the ULA website, so don't bother looking for it. Justin Lichter doesn't have much info on his.

There is one critical resource for hiking the HDT: the guidebook, written by HDT founders Joe Mitchell and Mike Coronella. But the guidebook only gets you so far, and you would need to do a lot of work in order to hike the route with only that one resource. For example, you would need to determine where to resupply (and what services are available at that resupply point); you would need to assemble a detailed mapset that covers 800 miles of terrain; and you would need to talk with other hikers and land managers to learn about the reliability of water sources.

Enter the Hayduke Trail Hiking Resources Bundle -- between it and the guidebook, you're just about ready to go. It has four parts: a mapset, databook, water chart, and guidebook compliment. It's not a replacement for the official guidebook, but meant to "round out" the knowledge base for the HDT, kind of like what Yogi's handbook and Jonathan Ley's mapset do for the CDT.

[Dogwood]

Andrew, you would probably make any long distant trail seem easy if we all had amassed the number of trail miles and experience you have.

I have not seen your Hayduke mapset. Is it designed like your SHR mapset?

Always, appreciate all the advice you share. Thanks.

[yappy]

I had not seen the map set either... interesting. it sounds like there is more info on the trail then I had thought.