Shelter is Full

[Cookerhiker]

Last October, we had permits and reservations for 2 backcountry campsites in the Mt. Sterling area. The second night, we changed our mind and headed for Laurel Gap Shelter, a non-AT shelter. Don't know if it was "full" via reservations but there was plenty of room.

I don't like breaking the rules but I don't think any harm was done. If the shelter had been full, we were prepared to move on.

[Rockhound]

Bring your tent but don't bring your ID. If any tries to write you a ticket say your name is Barney Fife.

Too obvious. I'd go with something more discrete like ***** *******.

[bfitz]

I'm sure you're not breaking any rules if you stay in a shelter that's not full. And anyone who refuses you a spot in a shelter that's not full, or refuses to squeeze a few more folks in a full shelter during bad weather is just a jerk.

[bfitz]

Too obvious. I'd go with something more discrete like ***** *******.

Right, like they don't have that one on a list...

[Chaco Taco]

^that sort of ****e makes me laugh and shake my head at the same time.. do they actually stay there all night and patrol the shelters to make sure no matter how empty it stayed that yall didn't sleep in it because yall didnt reserve them?

The ridgerunners do yes. They basically go out for days at a time and monitor the shelters and maintain the trail.

[Chaco Taco]

Clarification on a couple of things....

In GSMNP, when a shelter is full, it is permitted to camp within sight of the shelter; usually 50-100 yards. There are flat areas that can be used that are away from the privy area and water sources at almost all of the shelters.

.

I was told by 2 ridgerunners and a park ranger an that this only applied to thruhikers.

There is only one thing to do. Get a backcountry permit at on Fontana or whereever and guess where you will stay and fill it in. Write Thruhiker on the permit. You can just tell them you started at Stecoah Gap. Problem solved. Get to the shelter and when it is full, pitch your tent. I have done it a few times with a ridgerunner right there and had no problem.

[Chaco Taco]

I was told by 2 ridgerunners and a park ranger an that this only applied to thruhikers.

There is only one thing to do. Get a backcountry permit at on Fontana or whereever and guess where you will stay and fill it in. Write Thruhiker on the permit. You can just tell them you started at Stecoah Gap. Problem solved. Get to the shelter and when it is full, pitch your tent. I have done it a few times with a ridgerunner right there and had no problem.

My bad, tell em you started at Dick's Gap, so you meet the criteria of a thru

[Cookerhiker]

My bad, tell em you started at Dick's Gap, so you meet the criteria of a thru

Or if you're hiking SOBO, the 50-mile point from the north is Allen Gap (Hot Springs is less than 50 miles).

[Powder River]

Bring your tent but don't bring your ID. If any tries to write you a ticket say your name is Barney Fife.

I have a friend, who shall remain nameless who filled out "Grandma Gatewood" on an AMC form. Worked like a charm.

[neo]

I called a couple days ago to get reservations for 1 of the shelters for next week and it is full. It's only a 1 night trip and with the weather we have been experiencing I don't expect people to actually show up. What if we just show up fully prepared to hike back out and car camp if the shelter actually fills up? Has anyone done this?

i dont stay at shelters anymore,i carry a hammock any large silnylon tarp.with my tarp and hammock combo i can sit and eat and cook comfortablt in the rain
neo

[nitewalker]

Or if you're hiking SOBO, the 50-mile point from the north is Allen Gap (Hot Springs is less than 50 miles).

this is one way around reserving shelter space. i was told by a ranger to do the 50 mile north or south of the park and use this method as if i was a thruhiker. just make sure you fill out your permit correctly. " you did what" shhhh dont tell anyone!!!!!

[Dyadya Tim]

The GSMNP is in fact not only the most visited NP, but it is one of the most ecologically diverse areas in the world. It is a challenge to say the least to protect and maintain this diversity. With about 900 miles of trails running throughout the park it is a task that very few people understand. The rules and regulations help to maintain not only the beauty of the park, but also to help keep those that visit the park safe. While most thru-hikers adhere to "Leave No Trace" ethics, many more people who visit the park do not. Maybe, since I live so close to the park that I feel more attached to it, but I would rather know that all is being done to protect and maintain it so that everyone who comes can enjoy all that the GSMNP has to offer. If you feel so inclined to "diss" the park for the rules or feel that stealth camping is a better option, then do all of us a favor and don't go. Just remember that in such a delicate place it only takes one person to trample out the last of a species. So here in the Smokies its not just about what you want, its about perservation and keeping a diverse area diverse for many more generations.

[bfitz]

The GSMNP is in fact not only the most visited NP, but it is one of the most ecologically diverse areas in the world. It is a challenge to say the least to protect and maintain this diversity. With about 900 miles of trails running throughout the park it is a task that very few people understand. The rules and regulations help to maintain not only the beauty of the park, but also to help keep those that visit the park safe. While most thru-hikers adhere to "Leave No Trace" ethics, many more people who visit the park do not. Maybe, since I live so close to the park that I feel more attached to it, but I would rather know that all is being done to protect and maintain it so that everyone who comes can enjoy all that the GSMNP has to offer. If you feel so inclined to "diss" the park for the rules or feel that stealth camping is a better option, then do all of us a favor and don't go. Just remember that in such a delicate place it only takes one person to trample out the last of a species. So here in the Smokies its not just about what you want, its about perservation and keeping a diverse area diverse for many more generations.

Well put, and I am respectful of the concept of preservation. I think more people would be respectful of the ridgerunners if stuff like what powder river describes below didn't happen....

The Smokies shelter reservation system is a joke. The "ridgerunner" and his trainee took up 2 spots normally used by thru hikers when I was there, and was a jerk about it. He kicked the rest of us out of an otherwise empty shelter, because it was "full." The reserved people never showed of course. Just be sure you have a tent and do whatever you want. What are they going to do, write you a parking ticket?

I have no problem whatsoever with anyone (especially me) ignoring a stupid, unreasonable, or unjust rule, law, or law enforcement "official"...

[moldy]

I'm with you about just going and hope the shelter is full. Just in case you are worried about getting trouble with the trail cops pretend you are a thru-hiker. If the shelter is full, camp near the shelter. If Ranger Bill shows up and asks for your reservation number...tell him you are a thru-hiker(they don't need reservation numbers). If you are still worried....have one member of your group snag a blank backcountry pass at the park entrance.
Later on after you have left the Ranger station fill it out like you are a thru-hiker. you entered 4 days ago at Fontana and will depart 3 days from now at the North end of the Park. List everyone's name and no shelters, throw away the white copy and just keep the pink. He will have no easy way to check out your story. Most NOBO Thru-hikers get a Backcountry permit out of a unmanned box at Fontana dam, they keep one copy and put the other in the box. Every time I have been through the box is full...meaning that it's collected long after you are out of the park. They also give poor directions on how to fill out the permit so everyone does it different.

[Powder River]

The GSMNP is in fact not only the most visited NP, but it is one of the most ecologically diverse areas in the world. It is a challenge to say the least to protect and maintain this diversity. With about 900 miles of trails running throughout the park it is a task that very few people understand. The rules and regulations help to maintain not only the beauty of the park, but also to help keep those that visit the park safe. While most thru-hikers adhere to "Leave No Trace" ethics, many more people who visit the park do not. Maybe, since I live so close to the park that I feel more attached to it, but I would rather know that all is being done to protect and maintain it so that everyone who comes can enjoy all that the GSMNP has to offer. If you feel so inclined to "diss" the park for the rules or feel that stealth camping is a better option, then do all of us a favor and don't go. Just remember that in such a delicate place it only takes one person to trample out the last of a species. So here in the Smokies its not just about what you want, its about perservation and keeping a diverse area diverse for many more generations.

I fully appreciate the goal of preserving the fauna in the park, but that is really a whole separate issue from the shelter reservation system. After all, every shelter is a man-made structure with a fire ring, numerous tent sites, packed dirt in high traffic areas and the famous poo fields nearby, since they refuse to build privies. None of these sites are pristine and yet they are a necessary part of having overnight hikers use the trail. (except the poo fields- that would be easy to fix) Whether you tent or not at a shelter hardly makes any difference to the other 99% of the park that is not trampled down already.

So now that they've built the shelters, why all the fuss? The problem with all of this micromanagement of who sleeps where is its just a broken concept. There is absolutely no way to enforce it, and yet they spend all their time worrying about it, to the point that its actually a detriment on most people's experience there. I have no respect for a rule that is inherently impossible to enforce, and creates more problems than it solves.

What I would suggest to them is this:

1. Require every hiker, whether thru hiker or section hiker to have a backcountry pass.
2. If they absolutely have to limit the number of people on the trail, then limit the number of passes that are granted per each entry point per day for section hikers. Thru hikers would be exempt because there is no way to control the numbers of thru hikers or deny them access. Section hikers (using the same current definitions of thru vs. section hiker) would need to apply online to get a pass. If there are none available, then they could check other entry points to see if there are any available. Those that are smart enough could just grab a thru hiker pass at Fontana Dam. This would be a loophole that some would find, but the masses would still obey the web page thus limiting the number of hikers.
3. Your backcountry pass is good for as long as you want to stay in the park, with no schedules. Simple. Because there are new people entering the park each day, the group that entered the day before would be (wait for it..) a day's hike ahead. Obviously not everybody hikes at the same speed, but with all the fluxuations of hiking speed, NOBOS and SOBOS and thru hikers, things are bound to vary. Some would go fast and some slow. It all works itself out.
4. Sleep wherever you want, as long as it is within sight of a shelter. Obviously leave no trace rules would apply, and encourage people to use previously used tent sites. Want to use the shelter? Great. Want to tent? Fine. The world will not end. Ridgerunners can go back to doing what ridgerunners are supposed to be doing.
5. Build privies and more tent sites. Lets face it tramping into a field that is filled with little toilet paper flowers is not exactly the best way to protect a fragile ecosystem. Build the privies already. Make them handicap accessible if you want. More (and better defined) tent sites will ensure that nobody pitches on a fragile wildflower on accident.

Now am I the only one who wonders if this wouldn't be a whole lot easier, while still protecting the park? The more I think about it I wonder if the reservation system doesn't exist because they want a way for yuppie hut-to-hut types (ie the Whites) to hike without a tent. After all, we are talking about the uninitiated millions of Walmart tent owners who have never been in the woods before, drawn to the Smokies from nearby Gatlinburg or some brochure in Travel magazine. Having a reservation at a shelter means you can leave the 12lb tent at home and still experience the great outdoors the way Uncle Sam intended. If they reverted to a first come, first serve system this would make hiking that much less attractive to those people.

[MuleDeer]

From a previous reply, I ninja camp in the smokies a good bit. I refuse to set up next to some fat dude with a boom box blasting linkin park all night. besides, theres no way they could ever see my big orange Hoodoo 3 tent.

[Slo-go'en]

One problem with the reservation system is some people make reservations well in advance and then don't show up for some reason. Of course, they don't cancel thier reservation. This happens a lot if the weather turns out to be bad, and I imagine is more of a problem in the spring and fall then durring the hight of summer.

I found this out when I started my ill fated trip a month or so ago. I got to the park and tried to make reservations for the next couple of days. I was told Ice water spring shelter was full and there was just one slot left open for Pecks corner and Cosby Knob. Turns out it rained the next day and Ice water springs was nearly empty and Peck Corner was only half full. Same with Cosby Knob the next day.

[TIDE-HSV]

I climbed Mt. LeConte, stayed in the lodge, in May of 1972, the month before the reservation system went into effect. At the time, there was a large open area between the lodge and the shelter, which is now grown in. I have no way of estimating how many tents/hikers were crowded into that area. The tents were so close together that many were sharing stakes, and there seemed to be a fire in front of each tent, with a smoke plume going up. This had become the normal situation for all the popular spots in the Park. That's what led to the permit system. And, for the record, I've seen tickets given for being both in the wrong shelter and the wrong campsite. OTOH, when about 20 of us had to crowd into Derrick Knob on New Year's Day of 1974, because of an ice storm, the ranger looked in, told us good luck and left. As we talked, we discovered that none of us were registered for Derrick. We were permitted for Spence...

[TallShark]

Ok, somebody please help me understand what my approach should be if I wanted to tent/stealth camp in the backcountry along the AT ignoring the whole shelter situation all together. Would I just need a backcountry permit, a good discrete location, and a respect for the grounds of the park?... Stealth camping seems to be the way to go so long as you are an intelligent human being and have knowledge and respect for the area around you. Suggestions or opinions?

[TIDE-HSV]

Ok, somebody please help me understand what my approach should be if I wanted to tent/stealth camp in the backcountry along the AT ignoring the whole shelter situation all together. Would I just need a backcountry permit, a good discrete location, and a respect for the grounds of the park?... Stealth camping seems to be the way to go so long as you are an intelligent human being and have knowledge and respect for the area around you. Suggestions or opinions?

I can't recommend it, other than the suggestions that you validate yourself as a thru and stealth when the shelters are, in fact, full. The fine is severe, if you get caught. Most of the shelters are placed at the rare areas where you really have enough room to camp. There's just not that much suitable terrain around to hide. I suppose hammockers could drop further over the edge and find a couple of trees, but, at most places, it's just not possible to find a place to fit a tent out of sight.