Gear weight vs. Safety

[sbhikes]

I'm still not sure of your point....

It's just gear. Ignorant and experienced people are gonna get into trouble no matter totchkes they are carrying.

Exactly. And being somewhat experienced myself, I still will prefer

- A sleeping bag rated for much cooler temps than 40 degrees even if it's in the 60s at night
- A closed cell pad over any kind of air pad
- I still get sweaty even with one outfit to wear
- I still would prefer a larger tarp if the weather is going to be bad.

And yet my load is still light.

I think that new hikers who have no gear at all should start with the lightest they can get without going to any rash extremes. There's absolutely no reason to "graduate" from heavy to light if you don't have to. Much of the light stuff is better than heavier stuff anyway.

But if you have heavier stuff already, just go. Before you do, though, go through what you have and ask if you really really need it.

If it's something that is consumable, ask yourself if you really need to carry so much of it. If I'm going for a weekend, I don't bring a pint of fuel. I bring a couple of ounces. Enough to spill once or twice. I don't bring a full thing of mosquito repellent. I bring a tiny visine bottle of it. I can go a weekend without deoderant (heck a whole summer, too.)

For the non-consumables, ask a bunch of what-if questions and see if you can answer them by removing stuff and making do with something else. Do you really need heavy long underwear to sleep in? Can light long underwear and your rain gear keep you just as warm? Do you really need a cup, plate, bowl, spoon, fork and knife? Can you eat and drink out of your pot with just a spoon instead? Can you wear all your clothes at once and be warm enough, and if so, can you leave home all the clothes you can't wear at the same time? Do you really need a pillow or can you make one out of some of your other stuff? Are camp shoes really necessary if your hiking shoes are comfortable and dry quickly?

Now get out there and go! Start learning. I learned a lot hiking the PCT. I didn't know it all beforehand. I still know less than the average PCT hiker. There's a lot of stuff you can tolerate without dying. I still get to learn that lesson from time-to-time.

Good luck.

[garlic08]

Garlic--is it safe to assume that you are saying it was EXPERIENCE (coupled with common sense) that permitted you stay out there comfortably in running shoes and UL equipment?

Do you think that you could have done the same hike comfortably (and with the same clothes and equipment) as an inexperienced newbie?

I did mean to imply that it was experience that let us stay on the trail, rather than the gear. Mags says it well--with all this discussion about gear, it's really all very unimportant when it comes right down to it.

I would never have been able to do that hike through the Smokies with that kit in those conditions on my first hike, say. Nor would I have tried. It took a variety of skills, like drying wet clothing in the sleeping bag overnight (which many experts tell you not to do), using plastic grocery sacks ("bagtex") for the feet, keeping all insulation dry in the pack and walking fast to stay warm with minimal clothing worn, staying well-fed and hydrated in very adverse weather conditions, keeping drinking water and shoes from freezing solid overnight, etc.

By the way, nice job of moderating this discussion.

[DeeDee]

I was not complaining about my pack size. I know when I get out there and I feel more sure of myself or just plain tired of carrying a very heavy pack, stuff will be sent home or be left.
I just wanted you all to see that new hikers can get very discuraged by the things that are said or how you offer advice. (JAK prime example.) You are out there by yourself maybe another adult with you. I am a mother who will be there with my 13 year old son. No drama... my pack might be a little heavy due to the fact I need to make sure I can take care of him. Once I see what we need and what we can do I am sure it will get lighter. My point is you can say what you want. I live where the closest REAL outdoors store is 2 hours away. Think I am kidding I went to the biggest "city" around me, went to what I thought was a well known sporting goods store to get my pack and be fitted. The responce to that was we dont fit backpacks, didnt know they needed fitted. NO BS. Every thing I have learned and have put together has been from reading on here or books that I have read. all of which was recommened from someone on trail blaze. I was trying to make the point that guidlines for new hikers are sometimes better then being told your not going to make it because your clother or sleeping bag weigh to much. By the way my tent is 5.5lbs. Since i have never been on a hiking trip like this, I am just hoping I can keep up with my son. That he learns to enjoy and want to protect what we all like to walk through.

[garlic08]

DeeDee...Even someone of your internet writers really are not that good themselves.

...You know better than anyone what you can leave behind and what you need. You just have to believe in yourself.

Wolf

Good advice, especially the part about the internet. On this forum, for instance, you generally have no idea of the qualifications or background of the people giving advice. I know I have cringed or laughed at some of the advice here. And I know I've made some bone-headed statements.

If it helps to understand some poor-sounding advice, some hikers have relatively narrow fields of focus, as in "This worked for me, so it has to work for everyone." I'm no philosopher, but I'm sure there's a logical fallacy in there somewhere. And many of us middle-aged hikers who have discovered that lightening our loads makes hiking fun again for us tend to get overly excited about it, and assume everyone wants to hear about it. That's not the case, either, it appears.

I remember the first time I read Ray Jardine's book about UL hiking, I thought the guy was an absolute nut. The second time, after I hiked the PCT, I was amazed at how much he had learned in such a short time.

Turn on your BS filter and take the advice that sounds right for you. Put the rest in the hopper and maybe it'll make sense some day, maybe not.

[sbhikes]

I remember the first time I read Ray Jardine's book about UL hiking, I thought the guy was an absolute nut. The second time, after I hiked the PCT, I was amazed at how much he had learned in such a short time.

I thought the same thing. But I started trying his ideas out and I realized he really knows what he's talking about.

The first thing I tried out was wearing sneakers instead of boots. What an oh wow moment that was for me!

[JAK]

I think many folks discover at some point that the pack and tent they bought are way too heavy, and perhaps their coat or jacket also. Those are usually the biggest mistakes, both in terms of weight and money. Shame, because the extra money could have bought a great sleeping bag. I still use the 8 pound tent in the backyard, or car camping, so no real regrets there. The 6 pound pack I eventually gave away to my neighbour, to try and get him into backpacking. Heavy coats and jackets are ok in town. Still I am more apt to just wear a wool sweater about town, and leave the jacket in the car in case it turns to rain.

Once outfitters sell people a 6 pound pack they pretty much have them where they want them.

[DeeDee]

ok... I am guilty there I do have a 6 lbs pack not sold to me by the store but from online from REI. I watched a few fitting videos on youtube and figured I could do better online then in the stores I went too. I did spend the money for the tent, it is for both of us. My sleeping bag is 3lbs 2oz. Where my pack could stand to lose some weight is clothing. The mother in me is going.... have to make sure he is warm. I am sure we dont need 2 pair of thermals. The extra shorts maybe not. The pair of pants 2 at that not needed (plz dont hit me with if you buy the pants that zip off into shorts the you can leave out...). Here it is nothing to pay 119.99 for a pair of those pants. I just have to get rid of the need to have frame of mind. I understand this but lets face it, when you where new to hiking and it was your first long distance hike, didn't you want to try to make sure you had everything you "Needed". I am trying to make sure I have everything we need. The cost is real for me. Without having a good store around. Anything that is UL is at least 100% more then the heavier weight. Most of what I have bought is from outfitters online. Things like the light tent I bought from Cabelas for 150.00 cheaper then at the sporting good store near me. It is a eureaka. I thought I did pretty well. I have learned by wearing my pack around the house, how heavy it is and going to be. I do my steps, up and down 15 times a day. It was a shock. I am not as young as I use to be. I am also trying to make sure my son is not carrying to much.

[fiddlehead]

Dee Dee, I don't understand, your pack weighs 6 lbs and your tent weighs 5 1/2 lbs.
You say your clothes are the heaviest thing and your sleeping bag is 3 1/2 lbs.
Then you go on to say that you learned everything on this site.

I find that a little hard to believe.

Chances are, your body can't carry that kind of weight.

[take-a-knee]

A Kifaru Longhunter pack weighs 7#, it is designed for a hunter to pack 150# of meat (quartered elk or deer) out of the wilderness. A ULA Catalyst weighs 3#, and is all any trail hiker needs. A 6# pack for a hiker, with today's technology is nuts.

[Wolf - 23000]

I hear what you're saying, Wolf, and don't dispute it. It is true that one of the people who joined me on what was supposed to be a hike from Amicalola to Neels Gap over New Year's was crowing about his very light pack when we weighed our respective packs at the Visitor Center...and then he bailed the following morning after shivering all night.

But also starting out on a NOBO hike was a guy who had loads of clothing with him (and a pack weight of 55 pounds) but who was also shivering all night because he didn't know how to use what he had.

My feeling is that either guy could have been warm enough, if they had the skill to use what they had.

There is no cure for ignorance, except experience.

Marta,

I wasn't there of course but I'm sure you are right that either guy could have been warm enough if they had the skills. The problem I see in both cases is as you said their skill level and both guys looked at the equipment as gear to carry instead of looking at how it worked.

I'll explain with a TV show that I like Man vs Wild. (Yes I know he sometimes has help.) In one show, Bear Grylls use a soda bottles, and a canteen tin cup to make salt water into drinking water. If the average person had the same gear, most people wouldn't have a clue how he did it. One of the reasons I like the show is he shows people how he does it. I view UL backpacking the same way but the different is most UL hikers don't show others how the gear can be really used - they just post gear list and let inexperience hikers learn for themselves like the two guys you met. That were it comes don't to a safety issue.

Wolf

[JAK]

ok... I am guilty there I do have a 6 lbs pack not sold to me by the store but from online from REI. I watched a few fitting videos on youtube and figured I could do better online then in the stores I went too. I did spend the money for the tent, it is for both of us. My sleeping bag is 3lbs 2oz. Where my pack could stand to lose some weight is clothing. The mother in me is going.... have to make sure he is warm. I am sure we dont need 2 pair of thermals. The extra shorts maybe not. The pair of pants 2 at that not needed (plz dont hit me with if you buy the pants that zip off into shorts the you can leave out...). Here it is nothing to pay 119.99 for a pair of those pants. I just have to get rid of the need to have frame of mind. I understand this but lets face it, when you where new to hiking and it was your first long distance hike, didn't you want to try to make sure you had everything you "Needed". I am trying to make sure I have everything we need. The cost is real for me. Without having a good store around. Anything that is UL is at least 100% more then the heavier weight. Most of what I have bought is from outfitters online. Things like the light tent I bought from Cabelas for 150.00 cheaper then at the sporting good store near me. It is a eureaka. I thought I did pretty well. I have learned by wearing my pack around the house, how heavy it is and going to be. I do my steps, up and down 15 times a day. It was a shock. I am not as young as I use to be. I am also trying to make sure my son is not carrying to much.

It took me awhile to slowly shed clothing weight. Eventually I found it easier to keep one set of clothing dry that two sets. Still, when I hike with my 60 pound 10 year old daughter, I carry more clothing for her than I do for myself. lol

My clothing is cheap though. Rarely do I pay more than $40 for an item. Usually $20. Some items less than $10, even wool sweaters at Frenchies (thrift clothing store in eastern canada) The real secret is not to accumulate more than you need. ok guilty again. lol. The good stuff is pretty durable. Wool is somewhat less durable, but still very durable if you care for it. The great thing about wool is you don't need to wash it every time you wear it.

I keep an eye out for 80% wool dress socks at $2/pair. For underwear I use flannel boxers. Cotton, but one pair is manageable, and I can wear my polyester leggings while they are drying. It's fun figuring this stuff out. I don't skimp on clothing weight, but I only bring enough for one set for the worst weather I might get that month. I use 1oz per degF below 85F as a rule of thumb. So roughly 4-5 pounds of clothing for 5F to 20F. That doesn't include shoes or rain gear. 3 pounds in summer for lows of 40F. 6-7 pounds in January up here, just in case. Most of it stays in my pack, unless it get freakishly cold, which is what I plan for. I like to keep the wool on, and keep the fleece as the extra layers.

Enjoy your travels. Don't sweat the small stuff.

[JAK]

I still carry all my daughters stuff, even though she is 10. She is still rather small though. I am sure you son is bigger. She doesn't really have more clothing than me. About the same I think. I am not sure how much her clothing weighs. I would guess maybe half as much. Not sure. She is 4'3", 60 pounds. I am 6' 200 pounds. I think she still has half my surface area though, maybe not. I think half as much clothing weight is about right though, to be safe. They are supposed to have higher metabolisms, but when they get cold they really shut down, and that is not something I plan on letting happen. Sometimes I look to see what layers of mine will also work for he if needed. On day hikes I bring a wool blanket instead of a ground pad. We haven't done winter overnights yet. Maybe next winter. We haven't done long hikes. Just the Fundy Footpath. Lots of fun though. Short hikes are a great way to figure things out. I am not sure how I would do on a long hike. One week at a time I guess. Good hiking.

Hiking with kids is the best.

[SGT Rock]

I view UL backpacking the same way but the different is most UL hikers don't show others how the gear can be really used - they just post gear list and let inexperience hikers learn for themselves like the two guys you met. That were it comes don't to a safety issue.

Wolf

Excellent point. When you read someone just using a wind shirt and pants as his winter clothing, what he may not be telling you is he ends up stuffing leaves in them to stay warm. Or a guy that just has a poncho listed as his shelter may not say that he sleeps in shelters 99% of the time.

I guess some things are self explanatory like a tent is a tent. But when doing the more out there sorts of gear things, just copying someone's gear without knowing how or why he uses that stuff is about useless.

[jesse]

Have not read every single post. The title of this thread is gear weight vs safety. I'd just like to add; IMHO heavy packs are not safe.

[JAK]

A Kifaru Longhunter pack weighs 7#, it is designed for a hunter to pack 150# of meat (quartered elk or deer) out of the wilderness. A ULA Catalyst weighs 3#, and is all any trail hiker needs. A 6# pack for a hiker, with today's technology is nuts.

Of course I agree with you, but that's what they keep selling people. It's even harder to find a light pack in children's sizes. Don't even get me started on boy scouts. There's a perfect opportunity for them to develop and make available a line of packs suitable for children and teenagers. They fail miserably. Why? If they don't get it right, what the heck are they doing? They are supposed to be the experts. School packs is another. Too heavy even before the books go in. Have you seen school yards lately. That can't be good.

[JAK]

L.L.Bean is another. Do they not care about children. I complained about the weight of the packs to the salesman. He dismissed me right away, telling me a lighter pack would never hold up. Such total BS. The schools are just as bad for letting kids come and go with 20 pounds. It is a constant battle in my house getting my daughter to lighten up. She will carry a pack almost half her weight, sometimes off one shoulder. It drives me nuts. It's a one frigging man crusade.

[Tipi Walter]

Dee Dee, I don't understand, your pack weighs 6 lbs and your tent weighs 5 1/2 lbs.
You say your clothes are the heaviest thing and your sleeping bag is 3 1/2 lbs.
Then you go on to say that you learned everything on this site.

I find that a little hard to believe.

Chances are, your body can't carry that kind of weight.

Back into the fray. Actually, I'd say the human body can hump quite a bit of weight. Look at NOLS, it's students routinely carry 40% of their body weight. And then there's those Andes backpackers who hump enormous loads. And of course the sherpas in Nepal, etc. I've been carrying heavy packs for the last 30 years and I'm no NFL linebacker, instead I'm a limp-wrist, skinny, weak-kneed, vegetarian ex-hippie. My sleeping bag(WM Puma)weighs in at 3.5lbs and my tent is 8lbs and my pack is also 8lbs. Some hiking days I pull 18 miles, sometimes I do 2 miles. And I have finally found a pack that can haul all my crap w/o sagging and in some comfort.

A Kifaru Longhunter pack weighs 7#, it is designed for a hunter to pack 150# of meat (quartered elk or deer) out of the wilderness. A ULA Catalyst weighs 3#, and is all any trail hiker needs. A 6# pack for a hiker, with today's technology is nuts.

This might be true for weekend backpackers who carry no stove or fuel and very little food. Your sweeping comment does not factor in different hiking styles such as infrequent resupply or wanting to stay out w/o resupply for 15 or 20 days, or a kit for extreme wind or cold. And yes, my summer weight is many lbs lighter than my winter weight.

Excellent point. When you read someone just using a wind shirt and pants as his winter clothing, what he may not be telling you is he ends up stuffing leaves in them to stay warm. Or a guy that just has a poncho listed as his shelter may not say that he sleeps in shelters 99% of the time.

This reminds me of Ryan Jordan's and Roman Dial's Arctic Trek where they went 30 or 40 days w/o resupply and carried so little clothing that they had to wear their foam sleeping pads around their torsos whiled they hiked to stay warm.

Have not read every single post. The title of this thread is gear weight vs safety. I'd just like to add; IMHO heavy packs are not safe.

Heavy packs are not safe--this is a mantra you hear often from the UL crowd, as if repeating it reinforces their chosen style of backpacking, i.e. to go very light. We all go light, and I probably have one of the lightest four season dome tents out there, along with one of the lightest sleeping bags(for its rating)and down parkas made. The thing is, I like to stay out as long as I can and be comfortable doing it. And to have 3 or 4 books to read and burn along with enough white gas(between 32 and 44oz)to boil up tea and in the winter to filter water(boil)as my filter won't be usable.

Appalachian Trail backpackers are a peculiar breed, they can resupply at close intervals, maybe once every 4 days, and so do not need to carry 15 or 20 days worth of food and fuel. Sure, some of them go extremely light, and pride themselves on this. Some of them use the shelters and so they do not have to carry much of a shelter themselves. Many of them get off the trail during January and February as they are unwilling to carry the boots/bags/tents/clothing and pads needed for very cold backpacking.

As soon as winter leaves and Spring arrives, hundreds of backpackers will start out from Springer with very light packs, or at least with very light bags, clothing and pads, and some of them will spend many cold nights before April turns to May and June. It's okay, who hasn't tossed and turned all night in the cold? I sure have, but I don't anymore.

[fiddlehead]

Ok Tipi Walter, carry the kitchen sink if it makes you feel better.
But telling that woman that she can carry what you carry on her thru is a recipe for a failed thru-hike IMO.

[garlic08]

...Appalachian Trail backpackers are a peculiar breed...

Tipi, coming from you, this is actually quite funny. And I mean that with true respect and awe for your trips and what you manage to carry.

I think it's wonderful that within a subculture that mainstream people think are a peculiar breed, there are smaller groups that the peculiar people think are peculiar.

[J-Rod]

no one should Jump into UL backpacking...should be something you work your way to

i remember when i was a boy my pack as 40lbs...as i got older my pack got down to 30lbs

when i got back into backpacking 4 years ago i did my homework
read alot online about this and about that...started with a pack weight of 25lbs...now my base weight is 10lbs

i guess my point is that backpacking can be safe and fun at 10lbs...but it's something you got to work for...not something you just do