Gear weight vs. Safety

[prain4u]

The purpose of this thread is NOT to bash lightweight hiking.

However, it seems that, for many people, lowering gear weight is their primary (or sole) goal--while safety is an afterthought. I have a particular concern regarding inexperienced (to moderately experienced) hikers being so focused on reducing their gear weight.

Examples:
--Carrying clothes that are not warm enough for the conditions--just because the proper clothes would "weigh more".
--Not having adequate wet-weather gear because it would add weight.
--Lowering the weight of the food being carried--at the expense of having enough calories.
--Having a sleeping bag that is not warm enough for the anticipated conditions--just because it will save 10 oz.
--Using less-than-adequate footgear (for the conditions) because it is lighter.

Often, when a hiker reduces gear weight on certain items, they are also sacrificing a bit of comfort (and sometimes a little bit safety). The more experienced hikers have usually gained some skills and knowledge that help them compensate for this. "Newbies" generally lack the experience necessary to help them compensate for the additional challenges caused by using some lighter weight items.

Hikers (especially newer hikers) should try to make safety at least equally as important as reducing pack weight. It is probably better to let your pack weight continue to drop as you gain more knowledge and experience.

[Roche]

We old folks are lucky, we learned the ropes before we lighten our loads. Crawl, walk, run.

[garlic08]

Hikers (especially newer hikers) should try to make safety at least equally as important as reducing pack weight. It is probably better to let your pack weight continue to drop as you gain more knowledge and experience.

Absolute truth. Common sense and safety should definitely take precedence over trying to adopt an elite hiker's packing list. No way should I think, for instance, that if I bought all the same gear Ed Viesturs carries that I would be safe on K-2. But I would try to learn his techniques in a safe manner.

A warning can also be added about the problems associated with carrying too much. Two extra pairs of Levis, a two-burner Coleman stove piled on top of the twelve-pack, a lawn chair, and a motorcycle helmet (I actually saw this load once) can cause more trouble than a 40* sleeping bag on a 35* night. (The packer mentioned was fatigued, cold, disoriented, and limping back to his motorcycle at the TH after one night out.)

[Mountain Wildman]

I agree completely, I haved learned a lot thanks to the knowledge of people on this site, But I still make my own choices and aim towards comfort and safety. If I posted my gear list it would probably cause a heart attack or two since most are geared towards light weight. I figure I will shake down my gear over this year and finalize my pack inventory for my Thru in 2011. The abundance of knowledge on this site is amazing but as others have stated, What works for them may not work for everybody. I have camped since 1984 but never did more than day hikes without even a pack. My thanks does go out to everyone on this site. Just by listening in, So to speak I have learned a lot and will be better prepared because of it. But it all boils down to that old cliche. "Take it with a grain of salt"

[JustaTouron]

Examples:

I would add:

-- Relying on down instead of syntetics for sleeping bag and jaket. (with experience you learn to keep your gear dry, as a newbie it is better to have gear that still functions reasonably well when wet)

-- Improper shelter. A tarp is fine for experienced folks, a novice needs a tent.

[Frosty]

I fully agree with your last sentence. They more you know, the less gear you need, and vice versa, but when ever someone says "I don't want to bash, but ..." or "I don't mean to be rude, but .." it seems they always follow the 'however' or 'but' by doing exactly that.

All of your examples, with the possible execption of wet weather gear under certain conditions, are comfort, not safety.

People don't die on the AT because they carry less food or wear sneakers instead of high boots. If they are above treeline in the north in the winter in sneakers, then yeah, but if they do that, they are totally unknowledgable and have bigger problems than just wearing sneakers.

10* in a sleeping bag is NOT the difference between life and death on the AT. Your sleeping bag should not have you being comfortable every night. Two or three nights of discomfort will not harm you, nor will a night of sitting up with all your clothes on waiting for dawn, or starting to walk to keep warm. If you never are uncomfortable with your bag, you are carrying too much weight for over almost two hundred days just to be comfy for two nights. Don't do it.

Wet weather gear is good to have, but it doesn't have to be heavy and it doesn't have to include pants.

If you never want to experience discomfort, pile on the gear. But it isn't necessary.

Carry what you need to survive. It doesn't have to be heavy.

Also factor in age. If you are young, strong and stupid, carry as much as you want. Just get a pack with good suspension and off you go.

When you are old, too much weight will ruin your hike, or worse, cripple you. A good suspension pack is worthless to geezers with bad knees, hips or ankles. Your bum knee doesn't care if the weight it transferred from your shouldes to hips. It still feels every pound.

The purpose of this thread is NOT to bash lightweight hiking.

However, it seems that, for many people, lowering gear weight is their primary (or sole) goal--while safety is an afterthought. I have a particular concern regarding inexperienced (to moderately experienced) hikers being so focused on reducing their gear weight.

Examples:
--Carrying clothes that are not warm enough for the conditions--just because the proper clothes would "weigh more".
--Not having adequate wet-weather gear because it would add weight.
--Lowering the weight of the food being carried--at the expense of having enough calories.
--Having a sleeping bag that is not warm enough for the anticipated conditions--just because it will save 10 oz.
--Using less-than-adequate footgear (for the conditions) because it is lighter.

Often, when a hiker reduces gear weight on certain items, they are also sacrificing a bit of comfort (and sometimes a little bit safety). The more experienced hikers have usually gained some skills and knowledge that help them compensate for this. "Newbies" generally lack the experience necessary to help them compensate for the additional challenges caused by using some lighter weight items.

Hikers (especially newer hikers) should try to make safety at least equally as important as reducing pack weight. It is probably better to let your pack weight continue to drop as you gain more knowledge and experience.

[Snowleopard]

Examples:
--Carrying clothes that are not warm enough for the conditions--just because the proper clothes would "weigh more".
--Not having adequate wet-weather gear because it would add weight.

These two can kill you.

Even experienced hikers can run into trouble in conditions beyond their experience. AT thru-hikers have a lot of experience when they reach the White Mountains, but not always above tree line White Mountain experience. I've read more than one trailjournal that describes the journalist or others on the trail in various stages of hypothermia going through the presidential range in NH. I've read of instances of a dozen or more hypothermic hikers huddled in the summit building on Mt. Washington.

On the other hand, there are a lot of newbie hikers who spend a lot of money on stuff that's too heavy for what they're doing. New hikers often just carry too much stuff. If you can't wear all your clothes simultaneously, you have redundancy and can drop some without reducing safety much. I suspect it's common for newbies with heavy packs to have too few layers of clothing for the worst conditions. Your layers need to be sized to fit over each other with rain gear over all.

I suspect for most thru-hikers, all they need to add for the Whites is rain pants and parka (not poncho), carry two fleece jackets, warm hat and mittens. In NH, you need to be prepared for heavy rain at 33F with 50mph to 100 mph winds. Snow and 20F is easier.

[JAK]

I reduce my pack weight for safety reasons.
I increase my pack weight for safety reasons.

The optimal weight for me depends on the season.

It is still alot less in winter than most of the folks I see in summer.
Some people might go too light. Many more people suffer for going too heavy.

[Miner]

The biggest thing about reducing pack weight is to try things out first in safer conditions before you find yourself in a situation where you really need it. Try imagining how you will use it in the worse of conditions ahead of time.

Sometimes, all it takes is camping out in the backyard during a cold spell or in rain. Or picking a short trip where you are near the trail head and can bail out if necessary. I never understood the people who head out on a long trip with new gear (that is different from what they are use to) and they never tried it even once.

It took me years of slow experimentation before I felt comfortable with a baseweight under 10lbs. And there are times when I choose to go above that.

[scottdennis]

Had a saying in the Marine Corps, "it's easy to be hard, but it's hard to be smart." Could I go out and survive for weeks on in with nothing but a field knife? Yes. Do I want to unless I'm absolutely forced to do so? NO!

I must admit, I'll likely never thru-hike. I just can't take the time to be our of pocket that long. I have a great respect for those of you who have done it, or are planning to do it. So this post in no way is an insult or anything.

I think we all have to learn on our own what is "necessary" and what is a "luxury." Often times, what is a must for me is a luxury for someone else (i.e. if I don't have caffeine I can't function, LITERALLY!).

No one person has all the information or "knows it all." That's why this forum is so great!

[JAK]

This I know.
If you listen to most outfitters, you will buy and carry too much gear.
Even to the point of being unsafe.

[jesse]

I have noticed a lot of threads critical of light weight hiking. Get over it. HYOH.

[Appalachian Tater]

Has anyone actually seen a hiker get in trouble because they were overly concerned about weight as opposed to just not knowing what they should be carrying? I met an ultra-lightweight hiker who was carrying only Fritos corn chips for food which I found amusing but for a couple of days wouldn't kill you and would provide plenty of carbs and fat.

Regarding hypothermia, it doesn't have to be really cold for you to get into trouble if you are wet--it can happen in the middle of the summer in Florida. Your body temp just has to drop a few degrees for it to start. An early sign that should not be ignored is shivering--you need to get dry and warm ASAP.

You are at higher risk if you are sick, an infant or child, older, or are using certain drugs including prescription drugs and alcohol.

People misjudge risks all the time--hypothermia or tick-borne diseases are MUCH more likely while hiking than some mad killer stalking you.

[prain4u]

I agree with several of the posters who say that too heavy of a pack also has the potential to ruin (or end) a person's hike. (20-30 years ago, I frequently hiked with 45-65 lbs. I am currently lightweight and reducing. I may one day even reach the "ultralight" level. The older I get, the lighter I like my pack to be!).

Frosty: I would agree with you that the issues that I pointed out are a perhaps a COMFORT issue for a more experienced hiker. However, for a newbie, they can become a health and safety issue. I am not worried about someone having an occasional cold and uncomfortable night with little or no sleep. Anyone who has done much hiking has probably lived through that experience numerous times. I am definitely not saying that someone has to carry heavy raingear that includes pants. (Just appropriate raingear that keeps you dry without easily ripping and becoming useless).

I am more concerned about the inexperienced hiker who is already cold, wet and undernourished due to a lack of experience (and perhaps due to equipment that is inappropriate for their needs)--and who must now try to use a lightweight sleeping bag when the temps are 20* colder than the rating of the bag. At that point, we have the potential for hypothermia. THAT is the concern that I am expressing.

I really don't believe that I am bashing lightweight hiking. I am merely cautioning people against going more lightweight than their current level of experience can safely tolerate.

[GGS2]

This business of newbies and carrying more weight, etc. The problem of being a newbie is compounded when the newbie is not in good physical condition. The concern over trail injuries during the first few days/weeks of hiking is not unrelated to the excess weight some carry.

If one has been sedentary (office/school/store/driver/etc), getting on a trail cold and trying to make big miles is asking for trouble. Add a heavy pack, doing everything the hard way, and you're almost certain to have injuries and difficulties.

The proper way to begin is slowly. Do short mileage, never go too far away from home/car, in case you have to bail, or want to retune the equipment, etc. Gradually up the mileage and time away from home base as you learn new skills and as your muscles/tendons/ligaments/cartilage/bones get used to the new stresses you are putting them under. Muscles react fastest. The rest require much longer to adapt, so when you experience the common connective tissue injuries, like shin splints and foot/joint pains, you are getting a signal to back off and take it slowly again.

If you do this right, by the time you are trying to carry a full pack, you will have tried out the various rigs, and will know what works for you, and how heavy a load you can comfortably carry. Of course this will still vary as you get stronger and more skilled. But by the time you are ready to attempt a long trail, you should be either strong enough to get away with doing it wrong, or skilled enough to do it right. The young can get away with more than the old. But truly, the active can get away with more than the sedentary.

So, if you are sedentary, begin right away with a walking program. After a time you will notice that you can walk a considerable distance without discomfort. When you can walk all day, you can begin to carry a pack, and before too long you will be safe on a trail in the woods. Then you can begin to practice your camping/overnight skills, and before much longer you will be ready to start a long trail. Slowly.

[Mags]

Something I wrote. A version of this blurb appears in Yogi's PCT handbook:

One sunny summer day in 1998, I summited Katahdin in Maine. I had climbed one of the most majestic mountains in the east, and I had finished a thru-hike of the Appalachian Trail. It was memorable day, and one I look back on fondly. A week or so later, my knees werein pain. I was 24 years old, and I was hobbling up and down stairs more like an elderly relative rather than a young man.

It would take almost a month for my body to truly recover. Why was I in so
much discomfort at such a young age? I was muscular, fit, and in terrific shape.

Yet, I had trouble walking up a simple flight of stairs. Why?

WHY LIGHTEN UP?

Many people say the Appalachian Trail (AT) is perhaps more physicallydemanding than the other long distance hiking trails. Parts of the AT are indeed
more steep than anything found on the Colorado Trail, the Pacific Crest Trail, Continental Divide Trail, or other trails. However, when I thru-hiked the three-hundred mile long Benton MacKaye Trail with its grades more difficult than the nearby AT, I was climbing steadily up the mountains and comfortably hiking about 25 miles per day.

What changed? I was a more a experienced hiker. I was in better shape mentally and physically than I was on my AT hike. And my gear was lighter.

After my hike of the Appalachian Trail, I vowed never to carry 50 pounds up and down mountains consistently again. Over the course of the next year, I read various online resources about cutting my weight down. Went to a smaller pack. Made a homemade alcohol stove. Cut down my sleeping pad. I did the physically demanding Long Trail of Vermontin 1999 and felt great. The AT thru-hikers that year were a little incredulous over my small pack. When I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail in 2002, my Base Pack Weight (BPW – all your gear in the pack minus food, water, and fuel) was now half the weight of my AT gear.

The adventure of hiking the PCT was fantastic. Incredible vistas, experiences I will not forget . . . . and I felt great at the end of the journey. With lighter gear, the climbs were easier. My body was less tired. And the overall hiking experience was much more enjoyable.

When I hiked the Colorado Trail with its long resupply stretches, high elevation trail and long climbs, the lighter kit really came into its own. I was able to carry more food due to the lighter pack weight. Any inclement weather or shortened days could be dealt with because of my longer and faster pace. The trail was not something to survive, but an experience to revel and enjoy.

My gear continues to evolve, but my basic setup has not changed since the PCT: frameless pack, trail runners instead of boots, a good down bag, a simple shelter in lieu of a tent, a cut-down foam pad, and so on. I would not go on any future walks with my Appalachian Trail gear; I could do future hikes with my PCT gear.


ULTRALIGHT PHILOSOPHY

In the process of lightening my load, I’ve come to come look at gear as why I should take a particular piece of gear rather than what specific gear I should take. I do not consider myself an ultralighter. To me that term brings up too technical of an image where the emphasis is on gear and not on enjoying the trail. While gear is important, I think it is the LEASTimportant part of hiking. I use gear to hike . . . . not hike to use gear.

Rather, I think of going light as going minimalist for a person's own personal safety, comfort and fun levels. For me, on three-season solo hikes, it is pretty scant. No stove is taken, a very simple tarp and a thin pad is part of my kit. On social backpacks (more camping, less hiking), I’ll take a stove, a book, and perhaps a small libation for at night.

Why do I advocate this method? Because is simple. There is little to come between me and how a person can enjoy the outdoors. The simple act of walking is enjoyed without worrying about how heavy the gear is on the back. A backpacker is not exhausted in camp but can appreciate the sunset over the mountains, the sound of the wind in the trees, and can contemplate the wonderful day that was just experienced.

Over the years my gear has changed and evolved. There was a gradual decline in my base pack weight. I am at the level now where I can get lower only if I spend more money for shaving ounces rather than pounds. It gets to the point that I have to ask myself how much money is worth spending to lose more weight in my pack? I also emphasize again that I am really not into gear. It’s just a tool for me. Or, to put it differently, as one thru-hiker friend said to me, “Losing pounds is cheap; losing ounces is expensive.”

To me, that can refer to money, time, or comfort. Each hiker has to find for themselves what that balance is between comfort while hiking and comfort while in camp.

There is definitely more than one way to approach going lightweight. Most backpackers can easily get into the 15-20 pound BPW range without making any radical changes in their hiking and camping styles. The newer gear made by many companies is functionally equivalentto older style, more traditional gear, but is also much lighter.

SOME SIMPLE CHANGES

A good friend of mine is a prime example of how anyone can benefit from a lighter kit. He wanted to enjoy hiking . . . . but also be comfortable in camp. Backpacking was no longer a pleasure but a trudge. He’d be achy, sore, and exhausted at the end of the day.He asked me to look over his gear and give some recommendations. When a gear make over was done, a framed pack was purchased, along with a good down sleeping bag, and a light synthetic jacket. A small pot, a canister stove, a light two-person tent, and even arelatively light Therm-a-Rest completed the kit. Gear was chosen for his style and not mine.

The end result of this gear makeover? His BPW is 17 pounds. Most people do not have to take heavier gear than that (or so) if they are in a position to buy new gear. His gear is functionally the same as traditional gear . . . . but without the weight. It is not any less safe and does not require any more knowledge of its use or sacrifices in comfort versus traditional gear. And his comfort level in camp is no different. Needless to say, his comfort level while HIKING is much better. (Well, actually his comfort level in camp is better now. He is no longer as tired and sore!)

ASSESS YOUR HIKING STYLE

As other experienced hikers have noted, it is more difficult to go below 15 pounds in BPW. The gear starts becoming more expensive and/or you need to go more minimalist. If you are the type of person to hike all day versus spending time in camp, a more minimal kit may be for you. A cut-down foam pad vs. a Therm-a-Rest, a simple lined windshirt vs. a heavier jacket, and so on, will work well. Do an honest assessment of your hiking style. If you want some camp comforts and want more of a traditionalist setup, go for the 15- to 20- pound BPW Hike more than camp? Tweak your gear to fit a lesser weight range.


SUB-10 POUND BPW REQUIRES EXPERIENCE

Below 10-pound BPW? You better be comfortable, knowledgeable, and experienced in a wide range of outdoor situations in addition to being comfortable with a minimalist kit. As more than one hiker has found out, it is one thing to read about the joys of going sub-10 pounds on the Internet. It is something completely different to use this gear in real world situations. What is your experience level? Are you honestly comfortable in whatever Mother Nature may
throw at you? Have you used this very minimalist kit before? Finding out you do not know how to set up your tarp, that you hate going stove-less, and that you wish you went with a thicker pad is easier to deal with on a weekend outing rather than in a Fall snowstorm deep in the San Juans.

I am at about 8 pounds 12 ounces now. (Get rid of the camera equipment? Right at 8 pounds). To go lighter would require me to go even more minimalist, sometimes pick and choose my seasons with care, and perhaps spend more money. I’ve reached my limit pretty much. And I’m comfortable with this weight.

Remember, there is no such thing as the BEST GEAR. Find out what works for you for your personal safety, comfort and fun levels. Remember it is just gear in the end. We use gear to hike the trails . . . . we do not hike the trails to use gear.


OTHER RESOURCES

Lighten Up! a Falcon Guide by Don Ladigin: A good “meat and potatoes” guide for those who are traditional backpackers and want to lighten up their load. Not as detailed as other guides, but sometimes too many details get in the way of the overall goal. A good guide for the WHY of going lightweight rather than the specific WHAT. Basically, start with this book if you want to go from a 30-pound base pack weight to 15 pounds.

Lightweight Backpacking and Camping, Edited by Ryan Jordan: A very detailed, gear oriented workshop in book form. If you want diverse opinions from many different people and wish to fine-tune your techniques, this book is a great guide. This book is more aimed towards high-end gear for lightening your load, and it definitely shows the analytical of backpacking gear, but it does give some interesting ideas from many different people. The editor is the found of at backpackinglight.com.

Beginners Backing Primer and Lightweight Backpacking 101 at Pmags.com:
This is my take on the basics of backpacking and going light. These documents have links to backpacking stove comparisons, other resources found on the Internet, and how to go lighter if on a budget. It took many miles, many years, and much tweaking to get to my current level of gear. I put together a list that shows how my gear evolved over the various trails/years. It may be instructive as you put together your own kit.
Beginners Backpacking Primer: http://bit.ly/1OCNWg
Lightweight Backpacking 101: http://bit.ly/47nlJY
My Evolving Gear List:http://bit.ly/VMPqA

[Wolf - 23000]

Frosty,

People do still die on the AT because of the elements or require very expensive rescues. How many times have you seen or heard of someone ill prepared trying to save weight and needing a very expensive ride out all because they they didn't want to carry an extra couple of ounces? It true that carrying less food normal will not kill you but it can cause you a lot of other health problems.

As for your example of sleeping bag, 10 degrees may not mean life/death by itself but the more stress you put on your body the more likely it will be to fail when you need it the most. A hiker with a good night sleep is going to be able to get out of a bad spot compare to a hiker who was up all night.

Wet weather gear as you said doesn't have to be heavy; as for paints part well I think that is a reflection on what type of hiker you are. I think if you started right now in Georgia you might rethink your position on how important paints are.

As for being young, strong and stupid well I'm younger than you, in good shape but still carry less than you. As I'm sure you will agree with this, you don't need a lot of equipment out there. What you do need is the experience to go with it.

Wolf

I fully agree with your last sentence. They more you know, the less gear you need, and vice versa, but when ever someone says "I don't want to bash, but ..." or "I don't mean to be rude, but .." it seems they always follow the 'however' or 'but' by doing exactly that.

All of your examples, with the possible execption of wet weather gear under certain conditions, are comfort, not safety.

People don't die on the AT because they carry less food or wear sneakers instead of high boots. If they are above treeline in the north in the winter in sneakers, then yeah, but if they do that, they are totally unknowledgable and have bigger problems than just wearing sneakers.

10* in a sleeping bag is NOT the difference between life and death on the AT. Your sleeping bag should not have you being comfortable every night. Two or three nights of discomfort will not harm you, nor will a night of sitting up with all your clothes on waiting for dawn, or starting to walk to keep warm. If you never are uncomfortable with your bag, you are carrying too much weight for over almost two hundred days just to be comfy for two nights. Don't do it.

Wet weather gear is good to have, but it doesn't have to be heavy and it doesn't have to include pants.

If you never want to experience discomfort, pile on the gear. But it isn't necessary.

Carry what you need to survive. It doesn't have to be heavy.

Also factor in age. If you are young, strong and stupid, carry as much as you want. Just get a pack with good suspension and off you go.

When you are old, too much weight will ruin your hike, or worse, cripple you. A good suspension pack is worthless to geezers with bad knees, hips or ankles. Your bum knee doesn't care if the weight it transferred from your shouldes to hips. It still feels every pound.

[Dogwood]

Prain4U, I think I undertand your concern. Got a legit pt. when looked at in context of gear wt does not equal safety. The heaviness or lightness of gear does not, all by itself, detremine safety.

[prain4u]

Prain4U, I think I undertand your concern. Got a legit pt. when looked at in context of gear wt does not equal safety. The heaviness or lightness of gear does not, all by itself, detremine safety.

My concern is inexperienced hikers seeing all of the postings on WhiteBlaze (and elsewhere) regarding the "need" to go lightweight (and ultra lightweight) and those same inexperienced hikers "pushing the envelope" by cutting too much weight too soon. Generally speaking, you almost have to have some hiking experience in order to do lightweight or ultra lightweight hiking safely (and comfortably).

A heavier pack weight, in and of itself, does not equal greater safety (and too heavy of a pack has it's own added risks). However, a warmer sleeping bag will GENERALLY weigh more. Warmer clothes will GENERALLY weigh more. More food (with higher calories) will GENERALLY weigh more. etc.

Experienced hikers can often get by with carrying fewer changes of dry clothes--because they are typically better able to keep the first set dry. They are also more experienced at drying out wet clothes. Smaller and lighter weight forms of shelter are often less forgiving of a poor site selection or a poor setup. You tend to learn good site selection and additional tricks for setting up a shelter--as you gain more camping experience. Experienced hikers have often learned ways to stay a bit warmer and drier in a sleeping bag. Thus, they can sometimes use a "colder" (and lighter weight) sleeping bag than an inexperienced hiker.

To borrow a phrase: Size (or weight) really doesn't matter all that much. It is knowing what to do with it that really counts!

[JAK]

Something I never skimp on is clothing, even less so than the sleeping bag. I don't carry spare clothing, but it is enough to wear all at once in the worst possible conditions of that month, and still be warm enough even if soaked through. Of course in winter you would almost never be soaked through in 0F, but you might have to be prepared for freezing rain at 20F followed by a temperature drop to 0F, or whatever the climate data. Proper clothing and the ability to block the rain and wind and make tea goes a long way. Then you can push the e