Dog Etiquette

[Blue Jay]

I don't think it is productive to explain how you are going to deal with aggressive dogs on this list, I think it just polarizes the wrong people as I doubt that the people reading this list would take an aggressive dog on the trail. I say that because the problem is mostly one of education and folks reading all this stuff have probably got that figured out. About the 100% leash; I don't take a dog with me but have been with others that do and the 100% leash is not realistic or practical, however, a leash should be available and used when necessary. Just my $0.02.

Youngblood

Have you ever been bitten by a dog? You may be correct that it might not be productive to clearly state you will defend yourself, as dog people listen to no one and always believe their dog is an angel from heaven. However, it MIGHT help for them to know their dog could be beaten, and therefore keep them away. As for people reading this list, time and time again, some one claims their dog is superior to humans, they clearly do not have it figured out. As to their ability to figure anything out, you might have a point there.
100% leash IS realistic and practical, however dog people are fresh out of both.

[TakeABreak]

Well I am against dogs on the trail, although I do like dogs. From the start of my hike, I ran into obnoxiuos dog owners, at gooch gap shelter I was alrady ther had my stuff out and was eating dinner, a dog owner came in with two shephards the jumped into the shelter and ran all over my sleeping bag and made a mess. I told the dog owner to get them under control or die. He got the mesaage real quick.

Coming out of Erwin my partner was up front, dogs came running down the trail growling at her, we both got our poles ready to kill the dam dogs. the owners came running after them, and we let them have it good.

In the shanondoahs, flip flopper had a viceous dog on a leash that growled at anyone within 30 ft of her, I thought it was going to take my nuts off, it was one mean dog. There were others in the there also with dogs, running wild barking at deer and people.

In Pennsylvania a guy with knife the size of my kitchen, an axe, and handing out pain killers had a rottweilder as big as a dam pony was camped out at shelter for a week, the dam thing growled at anyone who came near the shelter. Needless to say I moved on.

In vermont I was coming down a mountain and lady with two and dog on day hike was coming up the trail. The dog came after me and once again I almost had to kill it. She put it on a leash and apologized and I almost ripped her head off.

Yes there were a few dogs out there that were ok, as I said before I like dogs, and had several myself. But the trail is no place for a dog and for feel it should be outlawed to have a dog on public lands such as hiking trail, that is not a leash or that is aggressive (when not threatened in any way). If people want to have dogs and let them run wild then it should on their own property. Not where may they may pose a threat to others.

Lastly I know people that have been bitten by dogs, and they dog owners had to not only pay some pretty medical bills, but were also fined, and got the person that was bitten sued the **** out of them. If you want to take your dog out there, you better be ready the pay the cost, no matter what it may be. Personally I do not think it was worth the threat of being sued over, a dog does not have to bite for you to be sued. If it traumatizes a person by a threatening posture, a good attorney will have you paying out the nose for the rest of your life.

[minnesotasmith]

Yes. I'm not counting accidents during play with my own, either. My story...

I was nine years old. I was silently walking alone (no people and no animals with me) on the street along the side of the street, not even on the sidewalk (there was no sidewalk). This was in a large residential subdivision on a military base, a few blocks from my house, during the afternoon in sunny good weather (no rain or anything). A standard-sized dachshund barked at me once from the front porch of a house I was passing. I ignored it, and kept walking. The dog charged off the porch at me at full tilt, coming from over 30' away. Before I could do much of anything, it had sunk its teeth into the outside side of my leg, about 6" above my ankle. It then backed up a bit, and barked at me some more. The owner (a woman) then came out of the house, all apologetic, and grabbed the dog. I don't remember everything else that happened, but I never touched the dog, and I was taken to the hospital to have the wound cleaned. I had a visible scar for close to ten years from that. I don't think the dog was destroyed, but IMO it should have been. Plus, the owner should have been told IMO that they could live on base, OR they could own animals; that they had a choice.

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As far as my experiences hiking the AT and Approach Trail, to be fair, I've not had a problem with dogs there -- so far. I've seen over 8 dogs while hiking, and they generally either were friendly, or ignored me. I did get barked at once by a small dog, but the owners (nice people) were smart enough to have had it on a leash the whole time I saw them. They also politely stepped off the Trail, pulling the dog away with them so I could pass unmolested.

[SGT Rock]

In my experience recently with that the family would have been removed from housing unless they got rid of the pet. The Army is getting tired of this sort of thing and doesn't care about size of dog or owner's excuse. I think that this is starting to be a trend across the US and some other countries. If you are on PCS orders to Germany, part of the Levy briefing is about what dogs the Germans won't let you bring over. A lot of their rules are breed specific.

[Blue Jay]

My question about being bitten was posed to Youngblood. I knew you had Minnesotasmith or you would not have submitted your other post. Dog People have no concept of what being on the teeth end of a dog is like. It's why we use them to torture the people both here and around the world. Very, very effective.

[Pecan]

I'm frankly surprised that some bleeding-hearts haven't given me Hades over my frank admission that if a dog tries to bite me, I will try to kill it, and will have a song in my heart about doing so afterwards.

Don't you think that if you gave the dog a few roasted pecans or a slice of sweet pecan pie, you'd not only avoid a bite but have a friend on the trail too?

[minnesotasmith]

"Don't you think that if you gave the dog a few roasted pecans or a slice of sweet pecan pie, you'd not only avoid a bite but have a friend on the trail too?"

First, when I'm hiking, 99% of the time the only thing in my hands is my walking stick. Second, I should not have to pay a bribe or "tribute" to be allowed to hike along the Appalachian Trail in peace. I pay more taxes than any dog does, guaranteed. Lastly, I decide who I befriend; no animal (or animal owner) gets to make that decision for me.

Now, if you'd suggested giving the dog about three Hershey's chocolate bars, some dog biscuits soaked in antifreeze, or just a handful of Ex-Lax, you might have been on to something...

[MOWGLI]

Dog People have no concept of what being on the teeth end of a dog is like.

Actually, I disagree with that post - completely. I am a so-called "dog person" and was been bitten by a very large German Shepard at age 10 - not some silly little weiner dog. I haven't allowed that experience to color my world completely. It has influenced me however, and I remain wary around unfamiliar animals.

Of all people Blue Jay, I'm surprised that you posted this. You rail at folks about being paralyzed by fear, then you invoke that reasoning to support your arguments about dogs. Please try and be more consistant.

In this case, I agree with Youngblood - completely.

[Youngblood]

My question about being bitten was posed to Youngblood. I knew you had Minnesotasmith or you would not have submitted your other post. Dog People have no concept of what being on the teeth end of a dog is like. It's why we use them to torture the people both here and around the world. Very, very effective.

Blue Jay,

That is a fair question and will try to answer.

My only dog bite was much like minnosotasmith's, when I was a about 10 yo and a dog nipped me from behind without me seeing it when I was delivering flyers, door to door, for the local grocery store. I was not seriously injured as it mostly got my pant leg and just barely broke the skin.

I do not own a dog. I enjoy the company of a well behaved dog but don't have any use for aggressive attack dogs on the trail. They don't belong there, even leashed. I don't recall seeing a thru-hiker with an aggressive dog... the key word in that statement is 'thru-hiker'. I have seen hunters with dogs (and sometimes their dogs without the hunters) and while some of them bark all dang night, I have never been or felt threatened by them, they have always been out there just doing 'their thing'.

The times I have been, or felt threatened by dogs on the trail, it has been by dogs owned by inexperienced hikers or backpackers. On occasion, these dogs were on leashes but where so big, strong and aggressive that it was too much of a challenge for the owner to restrain them for my comfort.

I have not had a major problem with dogs getting on me our my things, but I'm not all that fussy about friendly adolesent animals or kids that just need to learn what is acceptable and what isn't. We all had or have to learn these things.

Youngblood

[Blue Jay]

Of all people Blue Jay, I'm surprised that you posted this. You rail at folks about being paralyzed by fear, then you invoke that reasoning to support your arguments about dogs. Please try and be more consistant.

I'm not paralyzed by fear. If I were I would never set foot on the AT, I see more dogs there than in cities. Fear is a good thing. However many of the things people fear are unreasonable for the actual level of risk, bears, man eating plants, Hanta bearing shelter mice. There are some things that are true risks. Dogs attack people every single day and often kill. I was attacked yet again a month ago. The primary emotion when I see a dog is not fear but extreme anger. I know that triggers even the most gentle dog and it comes off me in waves. Fear comes next when I decide fight or flight, it's flight if possible, fight if not. Fear and anger are reasonable emotions when directly attacked.

[Ridge]

I would be happier if dog hikers would practice LNT and keep their animals out of shelters. But, my experience is that maybe 10% (or less) do so. It use to not bother me about dogs on the AT until my terrible run in with dogs and owners on Albert Mtn in NC. Owners at top of fire tower, unleashed attack dogs at the bottom. I walk up, alone, dogs tear up my Marmot jacket and I was bleeding before the idiots could get down and secure their mutts. Their quote "we are so sorry, our dogs have never done this before". They left as quick as they could, while I was treating my wounds and screaming at them about paying for damages. I have from that day been an anti-dog hiker and will be forever. I do have a dog, he stays at home. The scars from that day are permanent, and yes, I do judge all dog hikers from this experience, because I have yet to see a dog hiker who is worthy of my trust.

[MOWGLI]

It use to not bother me about dogs on the AT until my terrible run in with dogs and owners on Albert Mtn in NC.

Well in that case, I can understand. I have never heard of an incident quite like that, but I'm sure it happens.

Were they locals?

[Youngblood]

Ridge,

I remember you telling us about that before. That was bad situtation and one that no one should have to deal with. Obviously the owner was guilty of a lot of things and should have to answer for them... he/she was also guility of being a piece of cr*p for running away and not trying to make restitution for damages and injuries, especially when one is miles from civilization and possibly needing help. That was inexcusable and cowardly... they deserved jail time and fines.

Youngblood

[Skeemer]

[

Ridge wrote:
...I have yet to see a dog hiker who is worthy of my trust.

I met one, and only one, in my 3.000 miles of hiking. I hiked with him into Harpers Ferry and spent one night on the Trail tenting next to them. His dog was leashed at all times; the owner said they never took up space in shelters; he brushed the dog's teeth every night; he burried its crap and had a rain coat for it...etc...he took better care of that dog than some of my family do of their elderly parents.

When dogs attack people in Cleveland, they put them down...just like they do bears who become a problem on the Trail. It's a damn shame because both are due to human stupidity. Here's an idea...put the owner down...that would solve the problem real quick.

I have to agree...owners don't care...they and their dogs should be prohibited on hiking trails.

[minnesotasmith]

I was a frigging third-grader, and a small kid. That dog was over 1/3 my weight. To put it in perspective, it's as if a 90-pound German Shepherd went after me now. I've read before about a couple of cases where dachshunds have KILLED children. I was lucky that that dog didn't persist, or I'd have been in rather worse trouble; if I'd fallen down when it jumped me, no telling if it'd have followed its instincts and gone for my throat or not. If it happened now, when I'm a full-grown strong adult with years of karate training behind me, of course I'd win against it, but have some perspective, please.

[MOWGLI]

I was a frigging third-grader, and a small kid. That dog was over 1/3 my weight.

You must've been a mighty tiny third grader. What did you weigh? 15 pounds?

Ya know, I think its ironic that you talk about how you'd kill dogs in trail towns, before you've barely set foot on the AT, and after you've related how scared of black bears you are.

[Critterman]

A Vet once told me " not all dog owners are nuts but all nuts are dog owners ". That is the problem. One nutty dog owner on the trail can create major problems for everyone.

[minnesotasmith]

That dachshund was about a 25-pounder; as I said, it was a standard, not a miniature. I don't remember my weight exactly, but I seriously doubt it was over 75 pounds.

Oh, and that black bear I saw just west of the Hawk Mountain shelter undoubtedly would have outweighed me. Plus, 1 pound of bear undoubtedly >> 1 pound of city human in fighting ability, unless your name is Bruce Lee or the like. Besides, I was out there that day to hike, not to ruin anyone's day, mine or any innocent wild animal's. Even if I'd had a large-caliber rifle with me, I'd still have backed up and gone around where I saw the bear.

[stickman]

I've stayed out of this all week, but I do have an opinion. I love dogs, have had dogs most of my life, have one now, and maybe used to be one in another life. But when I hike, my dog stays home. If I encounter a dog on the trail, I give it the benefit of the doubt and if its friendly, everything will be fine. But if any dog comes at me aggressively, teeth barred, etc., it will get the sharp end of my stick with no hestiation or remorse on my part. I too have been biten - by a 120 pound dog on a leash held by a 90 pound woman, who was completely unable to control her animal. I required shots, etc., and that was really no fun. If I had been packing a gun, that dog would have been buzzard meat.

Stickman

[Youngblood]

Stickman,

Sorry you have been bitten, I understand your last statement and share your sentiment when my adrenaline is high during an aggressive dog incident. I don't know what the solution is, I believe that usually the problem is a lack of good sense or understanding of reality on the owners part. I think some people have unfounded, unrational fears of what they are facing on the trails and think they need personal protection in the form of their large aggressive dogs. These dogs are usually difficult for their owners to restrain. I recall an instance where a couple each had one of these dogs on a leash. They were able to 'hang on' to them that time, but I wouldn't like the odds on them being able to do it all day long on a popular trail.

Again, I don't know what the solution is but am glad that it is not a common occurance. My suspicion is that one outting with a scary situation teaches the owner that an aggressive dog doesn't belong on the trail and they don't come back with that dog... at least I hope that is the case. Most all of us thru-hikers have had folks back home ask what we took or are taking for protection on the trail and most folks are initially surprised when we tell them that we don't need anything. The perception of folks that don't have trail experience seems to be that you need something for protection in the wilderness, like a gun or a big dog and I think that is the fundamental problem.

Maybe education is the best hope for a better solution. About all I recall at the trailheads I'm most familiar with is an occasional sign saying that "Dogs must be confined or kept on a leash except when hunting" or something to that effect. Maybe there needs to be clearly posted signs warning about taking aggressive dogs on the trail, explaining that the owner is subject to fines and possible jail time if there are problems?

Youngblood