To Hunt (Bears in NJ) or Not To Hunt, that is the Question

[Pedaling Fool]

...The numbers are increasing dramatically in the area in large part because the norm is for a mama bear to have three cubs or even four instead of one or two that was common in the past or in different areas.

Let me guess...Global warming

[tdoczi]

It is very easy to minimize this threat or take it lightly if one doesn't actually live there, but one's perspective would probably change if it was THEIR backyard getting visited, THEIR garage getting raided, THEIR child being put in danger.
.

i love that word you capitalize, THEIR. so if i go into the woods, cut down a bunch of the trees with permission of some other humans, and build myself a house and have 2 kids and a dog the local animal population is required to respect the boundaries i've erected because it is suddenly MINE? i dont think so. and if they don't, the answer is to shoot a bunch of them? i know it largely is just me who thinks that way but i can never get how humans have developed this attitude towards wildlife.

[Pedaling Fool]

i love that word you capitalize, THEIR. so if i go into the woods, cut down a bunch of the trees with permission of some other humans, and build myself a house and have 2 kids and a dog the local animal population is required to respect the boundaries i've erected because it is suddenly MINE? i dont think so. and if they don't, the answer is to shoot a bunch of them? i know it largely is just me who thinks that way but i can never get how humans have developed this attitude towards wildlife.

The answer is basically, YES.

It's not just a "human attitude" If a bear finds a den that was previously occupied by a fox (or whatever), there's no "right to ownership". In nature it's all a matter of 'Might equals right', and whoever wins gets the den. We're no different, we are just a product of nature and nature requires us to selfishly look-out for ourselves/species.

The fact that we now look at things in terms of right or wrong is a break from nature.

If you find roaches in your house do you not try and kill them? If a squirrel, raccon or whatever gets in your house do you not try and get them out?

[le loupe]

It would have been interesting to see how a hunting ban would change bear demographics and size and behavior over the next 10 years or so. I would like to know more about the black bear.

That information is available-

"The bear population in northwestern New Jersey has grown from 500 bears in 1992 to more than 3,400 bears, and bears have now been encountered in all 21 counties."

http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/sci...l-for-december

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/bearfacts.htm

[Jack Tarlin]

tdoczi:

You are completely missing my point. When I emphasize the word "THEIR", what I'm saying is that it's easy for people from New York or Boston or Connecticut to tut-tut and admonish other people, and it's easy for these folks to dictate how things should be done in New Jersey, but it's not New Yorkers or Bostonians who have to deal with these problems, and if it was THEIR houses that were getting raider or were it THEIR kids who were being endangered by wild animals, then you better believe their perspective would be different.

And as to humans "developing" this horrible attitude towards wildlife, well sorry, this attitude has been around for millennia and is not a newly developed attitude created by contemporary people building McMansions in the woods. Hundreds, if not thousands of years ago, native people in America had a very definite and very singular attitude towards wild animals that threatened their families (like, say, wolves, bears, etc.)

When required, they killed them without a second thought. This is not exactly a new concept.

[le loupe]

A state wide hunt is not very humane. All areas including protected areas will be open.

A statewide hunt is not proposed.

"A black bear hunt would take place in December, concurrent with the six-day firearm deer hunting season, with specific rules to be set up by the Division of Fish and Wildlife in coming months. The hunt would be held in portions of a 1,000 square-mile area north of Route 80 in Morris, Sussex, Warren and Passaic counties."

same article as above

[le loupe]

As to baiting- what is wrong with that?

We loathe the "sporting hunter" who is "trigger happy" and kills the trophy. He uses more "honorable" methods?

If you sincerely desire population reduction, baiting allows for guaranteed results.

[tdoczi]

The answer is basically, YES.

It's not just a "human attitude" If a bear finds a den that was previously occupied by a fox (or whatever), there's no "right to ownership". In nature it's all a matter of 'Might equals right', and whoever wins gets the den. We're no different, we are just a product of nature and nature requires us to selfishly look-out for ourselves/species.

The fact that we now look at things in terms of right or wrong is a break from nature.

If you find roaches in your house do you not try and kill them? If a squirrel, raccon or whatever gets in your house do you not try and get them out?

so if i want to kill my neighbor and take his house that would be natural and acceptable? no, of course not. i dont see how going into a bears home and killing it because you dont want to coexist with it is any different. whacky view i know.

if TRULY threatened, then fine. but when people say stuff like 1200 incidents have been reported we're not talking about 1200 deaths or even 1200 incidents of injury or even contact.

and by the way i live in NJ

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, in most states if you discovered your neighbor breaking into your home, vandalizing or damaging your property, and especially, if your neighbor was threatening your family with bodily harm or worse, well in all 50 states, you WOULD by permitted to shoot him, and most people would feel that doing so would be perfectly "natural and acceptable". If this applies to unwelcome behavior by humans then it certainly applies to bears as well.

[tdoczi]

Actually, in most states if you discovered your neighbor breaking into your home, vandalizing or damaging your property, and especially, if your neighbor was threatening your family with bodily harm or worse, well in all 50 states, you WOULD by permitted to shoot him, and most people would feel that doing so would be perfectly "natural and acceptable". If this applies to unwelcome behavior by humans then it certainly applies to bears as well.

and anyone who wakes up and finds a bear in their house or perhaps even on their property and kills THAT bear i have no argument with.

[chief]

and anyone who wakes up and finds a bear in their house or perhaps even on their property and kills THAT bear i have no argument with.

In your original post you say, "i can never get how humans have developed this attitude towards wildlife". Now, after reading a couple of reasonable arguments, you do concede we are allowed to protect our space. See how that works?

[Pedaling Fool]

so if i want to kill my neighbor and take his house that would be natural and acceptable? no, of course not. i dont see how going into a bears home and killing it because you dont want to coexist with it is any different. whacky view i know.

if TRULY threatened, then fine. but when people say stuff like 1200 incidents have been reported we're not talking about 1200 deaths or even 1200 incidents of injury or even contact.

and by the way i live in NJ

Dude, you totally missed it. But to answer your question:

"so if i want to kill my neighbor and take his house that would be natural and acceptable?" Yes, as far as the law of nature is concerned that's just fine...now our laws may have a problem with that...

In nature life is brutal and when the male lion(s) have domain over a pride they are always on alert for rogue males who will run them off and kill all their offspring in order to create an urge-to-mate in the females. Dolphins have shown similar traits.

There is no paradise in nature -- no garden of eden --this is just an illusion created by gullible humans

[tdoczi]

In your original post you say, "i can never get how humans have developed this attitude towards wildlife". Now, after reading a couple of reasonable arguments, you do concede we are allowed to protect our space. See how that works?

I was making the distinction, for sake of clarity, between killing a bear that had actually done something to you and going out hunting. they are not the same thing and someone read my criticism as hunting as me proclaiming we shouldnt defend ourselves. i was never doing anything remotely of the sort and have conceded nothing.

[tdoczi]

Dude, you totally missed it. But to answer your question:

"so if i want to kill my neighbor and take his house that would be natural and acceptable?" Yes, as far as the law of nature is concerned that's just fine...now our laws may have a problem with that...

In nature life is brutal and when the male lion(s) have domain over a pride they are always on alert for rogue males who will run them off and kill all their offspring in order to create an urge-to-mate in the females. Dolphins have shown similar traits.

There is no paradise in nature -- no garden of eden --this is just an illusion created by gullible humans

if thats truly what you believe then great. but are the laws of society seriously the only thing keeping you from killing your neighbors and taking their things? thats not very rand-ian of you.

[Pedaling Fool]

I was making the distinction, for sake of clarity, between killing a bear that had actually done something to you and going out hunting. they are not the same thing and someone read my criticism as hunting as me proclaiming we shouldnt defend ourselves. i was never doing anything remotely of the sort and have conceded nothing.

Just because someone was talking about hunting as a way of defense, it is not the only reason to hunt. Hunting is also useful to control the population. Look at the problems with deer, should we not go out and hunt them. And to do that you got to go out and shoot them.

[tdoczi]

Just because someone was talking about hunting as a way of defense, it is not the only reason to hunt. Hunting is also useful to control the population. Look at the problems with deer, should we not go out and hunt them. And to do that you got to go out and shoot them.

perhaps, but i'm not going to bother going there. i was replying to someone who purely took the defense angle.

[Pedaling Fool]

if thats truly what you believe then great. but are the laws of society seriously the only thing keeping you from killing your neighbors and taking their things? thats not very rand-ian of you.

All right, I'm about to give up on you. You're just not getting it.

thats not very rand-ian of you. What's that mean? I think you're alluding to Ayn Rand. I'm no fan of her; John Gault (yes with a "u") is my real name and I picked it before I even knew who she was.

I respect her past, but she had it wrong and on the other side of the spectrum Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels had it wrong when they wrote the Communist Manifesto...which I find a very amusing read.

[tdoczi]

All right, I'm about to give up on you. You're just not getting it.

thats not very rand-ian of you. What's that mean? I think you're alluding to Ayn Rand. I'm no fan of her; John Gault (yes with a "u") is my real name and I picked it before I even knew who she was.

I respect her past, but she had it wrong and on the other side of the spectrum Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels had it wrong when they wrote the Communist Manifesto...which I find a very amusing read.

my apologies for reading something into your name that isnt there. and as i said, if the philosophy you stated about how you would treat your fellow man if unburdened by the laws of society is truly what you believe then i have no further argument.

[Pedaling Fool]

It's not philosophy.

[tdoczi]

It's not philosophy.

replace the word philosophy in my last post with any word you want and the point is still the same.