Socialism - Was: Leave your religious message in towns!

[Skeemer]

Weary wrote in part:
...Skeemer's comments based on my observations are sheer nonsense...it's difficult to be an incompetent piece worker, or an incompetent assembly line worker, Such are exposed and gotten rid of quickly.

Let me say right up front that there are plenty of incompetent managers and CEO's...I worked for some.

It's obvious to me Weary has lost any semlance of objectivity and has long been out of touch with reality. I whitnessed first hand the following: The Shop Chairman's son where I worked was arrested for dealing drugs at a Visteon plant across town and was fired. Liberal judges and lawyers made sure he never went to jail. The Shop Chairman then "black mailed" our management into hiring his son, not just as a production worker but as an apprentice skilled tradesman.

When threatened with work stoppages managers don't know what to do. The "big three" has worked hard trying to make the UAW a "partner in the business" and it has failed miserably. Because of what I have seen, I will never purchase another vehicle built by a UAW worker...even with my discount.

Incompetnet workers are not "gotten rid of quickly" as Weary contends. In a 15 year span the UAW facility that I worked at was never able to sustain one hourly discharge...not one...and one of those was an unprovoked assault. On the other hand, salaried personnel administration fired at least 8 salaried employees. So please, don't try to glorify the "abused" hourly employee. It is NOT that difficult to be an incompetent piece worker and even less difficult to be a incompetent skilled trades worker. Why?...because management has lost control and it is now the unions that are running things. At least Companies like Caterpillar and Bridgestone had the guts to stand up to their unions and these jobs are still here in the US for the time being. Like I said before, the plant I worked at is beginning to lose money and its days are numbered. BTW, it employed about 250 salaried employees and 1,100 hourly last I looked. When things got bad it was the salaried who were the first to go.

Look guys, if there is one thing obvious here, it's that some liberals are "die hards" and are just not going to accept the fact that their way MAY not always be the right way. Companies cannot abuse workers like olden days and expect to get the quality demanded by today's marketplace, On the other hand, I do thank liberals for their environmental rules and regs. I do believe that if it weren't for strong environmental laws, air and water polution would be out of control.

[Skeemer]

Roots 'n Rocks wrote:
Are you referring to the union or the management?

What I was referring to were "Shop Rule violations" in the hourly contract agreement. Read my reply to Weary...we fired plenty of salaried and not one hourly.

SMS (who I respect) wrote:
it seems today that productivity is UP ..which means that the workers are producing more...however this gain in productivity has not been reflected in the workers wage.
Productivity is up due to computers (fewer salaried) and a few work rule changes that management has been able to squeeze in at unionized facilities. I agree, the productivity increases do not make up for the benefit package and the $60k a year ($100k plus with overtime) the hourly UAW worker makes. That's why as time goes on the profits wain and you go eventually go out of business.

To tie this to hiking. I hiked with and got to know a guy who was a retired pattern maker (highly skilled) at a non-union facility. He worked hard, loved his job and was well paid. He told me he had plenty of opportunities to work at Ford but stayed where he was. His bosses appreciated his contribution and rewarded him accordingly.

Needles wrote:
The shareholders owe it to the employees, who are responsible for any and all profits the shareholders reap

Not exactly...before you have employees you must have capital at risk to build the business and you can thank the shareholders for that.

Back when GM had 60% of the market they could make junk and get away with it. (That's when the UAW fought for and got COLA.) With what? 25% today, they are able to sell cars for what? $40k and the stock is floundering. They must have workers who will come to work and do quality work or everybody losses...customers, management...employees, hourly and salaried. Shareholders will be punished by bad management and bad hourly employees.

[Needles]

Not exactly...before you have employees you must have capital at risk to build the business and you can thank the shareholders for that.

Umm... I think you are getting the cart bee the horse a bit here. Normally a company is started, makes it or doesn't, gets big enough to start attracting attention, then the owner of the private company decides to take it public and if the stock sells well it is a huge windfall for the owner of the company. Capital normally comes from a single individual who starts a business, or from a bank, or from a few family members. It is an exceptionally rare situation that involves shareholders providing capital up front to build the business, shareholders normally come in much later on. Plus the shareholders normally don't even care if the business is profitable or not, heck, Microsoft has been rediculously profitable but until quite recently they didn't pay dividends so none of that profit made it to the shareholders. They made their money off of speculation alone. Apple still doesn't pay dividends, Amazon has been a huge success for its shareholders even though they are still loosing money. So it is still true that shareholders provide nothing, and quite often reap the most profits from a company, the last large company I worked for was seeing record profits, the stock was going higher and higher, and yet people kept getting laid off because the record profits weren't as high as the wall street goons thought they should be. I saw several really hard working, highly qualified and very experienced employees get booted out the door, but I never got laid off, even though I tried my best to get fired and did everything I could to not add to the company's profits as I felt what they did was imorral and unethical, but I still didn't get fired, I got a raise and got promoted. Of course we didn't have a union, which is probably a good thing, keep those good employees could have made the company even more profitable and I would have hated that.

[Skeemer]

I guess it's just how one looks at things. I invested in a company which went public about 15 years ago. They made sizable capital investments at the time of the stock offering. Since then they continue to make acquistions, grow and pay a 5% dividend on top of it. I don't recall hearing about the original owners pocketing the cash and leaving town. Obviously, you and I have had different experiences with capitalism. I don't understand why some people hate Bill Gates or Warren Buffet just because they are rich. The ones I don't care for are the Teddy Kennedy's who have never worked a day in their lives.

I'm not sure I could sleep at night if I was receiving a paycheck, getting raises and promotions from a company that I hated and was trying to put the screws to. Why not quit and go work for someone who shares your values...or aren't there any out there that do?

[ripple]

I think the factories china shares those values.

[Needles]

I guess it's just how one looks at things. I invested in a company which went public about 15 years ago. They made sizable capital investments at the time of the stock offering. Since then they continue to make acquistions, grow and pay a 5% dividend on top of it. I don't recall hearing about the original owners pocketing the cash and leaving town. Obviously, you and I have had different experiences with capitalism. I don't understand why some people hate Bill Gates or Warren Buffet just because they are rich. The ones I don't care for are the Teddy Kennedy's who have never worked a day in their lives.

I'm not sure I could sleep at night if I was receiving a paycheck, getting raises and promotions from a company that I hated and was trying to put the screws to. Why not quit and go work for someone who shares your values...or aren't there any out there that do?

I actually have nothing at all against Warren Buffet, he has done a lot of good with the money he has made and I find that most admirable. My main problem with Bill Gates is not that he wants to take over the market, it's that he wants to take over the market with a crappy product. The free market is all about choice and Microsoft aims to eliminate all of their competition and therefore limit the consumers choices. Doesn't sound like Mr. Gates is much of a caplitalist to me.

As far as my previous job, it was a huge issue for me, this company compiles databases filled with information on every person in the US, and many outside of the US. They then sell this information to businesses, the US government, and anyone else who has the money and who isn't blatently violating the credit reporting act. The fact that they have become the corporate version of "Big Brother" is bad enough, and when I found out that they were doing this (by breaking the company into numerous small divisions it makes it hard for anyone in the company to know the full scope of their opperations, but the sales staff has to know, and since I worked with the sales staff I found out) I started making plans to leave, and then something interesting happened. The CEO came to our office to give a pep talk. While he was there he talked about he wanted to get a DNA sample from every person in the US (the company had purchased Bode Laboratories the year before, Bode is the largest DNA lab in the world) and form a database of these samples which could then be cross referenced with all of the other information the company holds. So you are walking down the street and a hair falls out of your head, someone finds that hair and can then find out who you are, when you live, who you are married to, how much your house cost, where you work, if you ever failed a drug test, how good your credit is, how many claims you have filed on your auto and home owners insurance, find out certain aspects about your health, so on and so forth, because this is all information this company holds in its databases. I'm sorry, this scared the hell out of me. If the US government was doing this there would be a huge uproar. A corporation does it and no one seems to care, at least we get to have some say so in who represents us in the government, but did anyone here vote for Derek Smith to be the CEO of ChoicePoint? Do any of you know how Derek Smith feels about privacy rights? Do any of you know what and how much information ChoicePoint holds on you and who they are selling it to and how much of it is false? I didn't think so, but I decided to stay with the company for a while to find out as much as I could, the more I found out the more it frightened me and now I tell who ever I can find what I know so maybe they can get frightened as well and just maybe enough people will care so that we can do something about this.

Of course I no longer work for ChoicePoint and I do work for a company that shares my values, it is a small company where the hard work of the employees is truly valued and no one on the board of directors mistakenly believes that the company could survive without its employees. We don't have a union but the CEO of this company would welcome one if the employees ever thought it was something they needed. Our company is profitable, growing, and working to do more than just make profits as we work with several non-profit organizations to hopefully make the world, or at least our little corner of it a better place.

[Needles]

The ones I don't care for are the Teddy Kennedy's who have never worked a day in their lives.

Oh, by the way, add George W Bush to the list with Teddy Kennedy, he has never worked a day in his life either.

[Rocks 'n Roots]

Companies cannot abuse workers like olden days and expect to get the quality demanded by today's marketplace

Hmm, somebody's out of touch with reality here. While I agree that incompetent or even incorrigible workers get away with it, the level of employee had dropped considerably in the occupation I witnessed. This loss of quality service was passed onto the customer. The apathy this systemic and institutionalized decline produced lead to less safety in the work area since the job was seen as a dying position. The previous workers didn't care because they knew they were going to be replaced. The replacements were not inclined to give a high performance not only because of their level of capability, but because they also knew why they were there. The company sent out an independent and anonymous survey asking about the position. I emphasized that this work environment was lucky it hadn't gotten anyone killed. We had already had one death. Shortly after two more were killed. One was mangled horribly. Trust me, that survey wasn't for our good, it was more company skeeming trying to figure out how best to screw us and make it all look professional and OK. The first qualification of these new employees is willingness to allow the company to pay less and less without complaint. Competency was negotiable. I won't go into the demographic these new workers came from and why that demographic was preferable. The reason those incompetent workers get away with it is because the company has deliberately installed a level of disconnectedness with that level in order to promote an atmosphere of purposeful non-responsiblity or unaccountability that is most cost effective. Company doubletalk translates that into "giving opportunities to the unemployed" or some other dishonest spin...

[weary]

Oh, by the way, add George W Bush to the list with Teddy Kennedy, he has never worked a day in his life either.

Come on guys. Time again for a reality check. We all heard George say again and again in the debates about "it's hard work." Surely George wouldn't lie.

FWIW, Teddy is probably the hardest working member of Congress. That's why he remains influential. And why he's been elected many times. I met him once. He came to my union town (though it routinely votes Republican) once when his older brother was running for the Presidency. We were both in our 20s. I was recruited to meet with him since everyone else was for Stevenson.

So. We met, chatted a bit, had a beer together. And just to prove my political skills, I told Ted, I to was a Stevenson supporter. He never called back.

Weary

[Skeemer]

Very interesting, and explains why you both feel the way you do.

Needles, if what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) that IS scary. Puts a whole new perspective on things.

I hope you can see why I feel the way I do about unions...if not I've got lots and lots of stories. One is about a Plant Manager that got fired because he tried to do his job. He insisted the hourly people all be required to wear safety glasses WITH SIDE SHIELDS. He also tried to remove rented scooters from the plant that hourly employees were using to ride around on while they should be working. He went on medical leave and never came back. The union went over his head and got him fired...I'm not hiding anything...it's about power.

[Needles]

Very interesting, and explains why you both feel the way you do.

Needles, if what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt it) that IS scary. Puts a whole new perspective on things.

I hope you can see why I feel the way I do about unions...if not I've got lots and lots of stories. One is about a Plant Manager that got fired because he tried to do his job. He insisted the hourly people all be required to wear safety glasses WITH SIDE SHIELDS. He also tried to remove rented scooters from the plant that hourly employees were using to ride around on while they should be working. He went on medical leave and never came back. The union went over his head and got him fired...I'm not hiding anything...it's about power.

Trust me, I don't go for far out sounding conspiracy theories and had I not worked for this company and seen it with my own eyes I would have never believed it. Had I not heard Derek Smith say he wanted a DNA sample from every person in the US and then go on to tell his plan on how to get it (the recent law that was put in place in California that allows a DNA sample to be taken from every fellon in the state, and everyone who is arrested for a fellony, even if they aren't convicted or even charged, falls right into the plan that Derek Smith detailed) I would have thought this was just some crazy paranoid idea being promoted by some fringe group. In fact it is being put in place by a large and very powerful corporation (the same corporation that owns Database Technologies in Florida which is the company that created the list of names Florida election officials used to barr individuals from voting in the 2000 presidential election, the same corporation that makes huge donations to the RNC each election cycle, you know the kind of corporation with a ton of political clout) that opperates completely under the radar of the average American and apparently under the radar of most big media outlets. If you do a web search you can find all sorts of articles on ChoicePoint, including info on how they illegally obtained the voter registration lists from a number of countries in Latin America so they could sell this information to the US government (why would the US government want this?) and how inaccurate their databases are, and how thier database products have incorrectly kept numerous individuals from being able to do things like sell their homes. ChoicePoint was also involved in CAPPS II the air traveler screening program, and the Total Information Awareness Project. Strange how all of this information is available but no one seems to take notice, is it possible that we Americans just don't care? I certainly hope not.

As far as your second point goes, I know that unions sometimes do things that make no sense, especially from the standpoint of business owners and management. But the perspective of management and the workers can be so different that what seems completely idiotic to one might make perfect sense to the other. Furthermore unions have done a lot of good in this country, including things that were good for business, neither business or unions are completely evil, and it isn't fair for anyone to characterize either as such, of course neither is complete good but that goes without saying. What I do know is that the productivity rate of the industrializes European nations on a per capita basis out paces the productivity rate in the US. I also know that most workers in the industrialized nations of Europe get 3 to 4 times the paid vacation time as workers in the US. Now the average manager in the US can't conceive that extra time off might mean extra productivity while he or she can easily see how fewer workers doing the same amount of work equates to higher productivity. If the unions were to push for more vacation time it could be good for the workers, which is why the unions would do so, but it could also be good for the businesses, but I don't think they would believe it until they saw it. This is the value of unions, the US government, no matter who is running it, will never try to force companies to give their workers more paid vacation, so in the US it is up to the unions to do so, the US government seems to find it painful to even ask for a reasonable minimum wage as businesses always fear that it will make them go under, strangely Washington state, with the highest minimum wage rates in the country, has been a popular place for many businesses to move to and many have been highly successful (remember where Microsoft is headquartered) and none have been forced to go under because of the minimum wage in the state. Unions are needed in the US, but we need good unions, sadly our entire country seems to be populated by a bunch of non-thinking reactionist idiots now, "if management says it, it must be a lie", "Unions are all greedy and never do anything that helps the company that pays the union member's paychecks", "Republicans all want to murder the planet and rape the poor", Democrats are all a bunch of tree hugging idiots whit no common sense". None of these statements are completely true and until we can all get away from the black and white CNN Crossfire mentality we have adopted I don't think we will see a lot of progress on any issue. Please people, do some research, learn what the other side really thinks instead of just accepting what your side says they think, and then think for yourself for a change. That's what made our country great once, and can make it great again, but unless we start using our brains I am afraid this nation is doomed to permenant mediocrity within a few years, and that would make us no better than the French ;-)

[weary]

....do some research, learn what the other side really thinks instead of just accepting what your side says they think, and then think for yourself for a change. That's what made our country great once, and can make it great again, but unless we start using our brains I am afraid this nation is doomed to permenant mediocrity within a few years, and that would make us no better than the French ;-)

Well, I think I've done quite a bit of research for 60 years or so. During some of those years no one I worked for ever cared what I did or did not believe. But for a lot of those years they cared deeply about my alleged biases. There were questions in many letters to the editors. I managed to survive them all.

I've never worked for a "liberal," but I did manage to survive several arch right wing bosses and several middle of the road types, and a few just plain incompetent types. What's my conclusion after all these decades? Liberals are at an inherent disadvantage. We believe in reason and facts, not faith. It remains difficult to argue with folks who insist they are right, because God told them so.

Weary

[jjmcgo]

I can't help but note that first came the unions and then the move by working people to the suburbs. We'd still be living in city rowhouses but for the big bump up in earning power that all Americans achieved because non-union businesses had to pay workers more to compete for skilled labor.
No more living like "The Honeymooners."

[MoBeach42]

I believe that people should be free to reject accepting (and thus paying anything for) those services. People should be as free to reject using and paying for snow or garbage removal, fire extinguishing services, etc., as they are free now to refuse to use Ford, Xerox, or General Mills products.

MS - this is EXCELLENT NEWS!!! So you have legitimated my not paying for National Defense and the Pentagon's bloated budget, as well as all the ludicrous subsidies for factory farms, the oil industry, and our disgusting highway system. Thanks for the advice. I've always wanted to be a war tax resister.

-Jay

[MoBeach42]

I believe that people should be free to reject accepting (and thus paying anything for) those services. People should be as free to reject using and paying for snow or garbage removal, fire extinguishing services, etc., as they are free now to refuse to use Ford, Xerox, or General Mills products.

MS - this is EXCELLENT NEWS!!! So you have legitimated my not paying for National Defense and the Pentagon's bloated budget, as well as all the ludicrous subsidies for factory farms, the oil industry, and our disgusting highway system. Thanks for the advice. I've always wanted to be a war tax resister.

-Jay

[Skeemer]

jjmcgo
I can't help but note that first came the unions and then the move by working people to the suburbs. We'd still be living in city rowhouses but for the big bump up in earning power that all Americans achieved because non-union businesses had to pay workers more to compete for skilled labor.
No more living like "The Honeymooners."

One thing I failed to mention in my previous postings was that I have never begrudged the hourly workers their high wages, full paid health care, cost of living allowances, tool allowances, overtime pay, profit sharing, etc., etc. All I ever asked them to do in return was a fair days work...not slave work in a sweat shop...just come to work every day and do their job in a safe environment...that's all. I worked in three different UAW facilities and they won't do it. Guys like Weary have workers believing that management is evil and if it wasn't for unions they wouldn't have a job. Well, unions did a lot of good until the 60's when things began to change. It is now the unions that are running things and chasing jobs overseas. Here in Ohio, non-union Honda, has created 16,000 jobs and is celebrating its 50th anniversary while the Ford Plant in Lorain announced it will close its doors for good. And BTW, " Mr. Weary know-it-all", management sat down with them years ago and asked them to help change some work rules and save the business. The UAW told them to go to hell! Also, if it wasn't for Caterpillar standing up to the UAW those jobs would be long gone from the USA. Remember the Air Traffic Controllers laughing, jumping up and down on strike until Reagon told them they were fired? Want some more examples?...I've got a bunch.

Liberals like Weary have got them believing they are entitled to everything. Whether you believe it or not I don't really care...I've seen them get everything they want when they recognize how much power they have. And, BTW, I think you can tell from some of my other posts that I've not claimed god has anything to do with anything. I'm a fiscal conservative and have some very liberal points of view on many matters like religion, environmental laws, women's right to choose, etc. And, my father woked as a union member most of his life before becoming management while my first job was a card carrying carry-out boy for Krogers.

Have you ever noticed the egomaniacs like Weary...they think the're experts on everything. He's always right on everything and puts down anyone who doesn't agree with him. Maybe it's his brain that's getting weary with his old age and senility setting in.

[oldfivetango]

Which except, perhaps, for a short time in the lives of a few 60's communes and an equally short experiment at Brooks Farm in the mid 1800s, has yet to be seriously tried.

Unfortunately "socialism" as a scare label has been used over the decades by the powerful and their gullible know nothing allies to protect their power.

The irony is that both the powerful and the gullible lose as a result. As we have heard again and again over the past few months, consumers are the engine that drives our economy. I'm fascinated as I see the powerful chuckling over their ability to eliminate jobs and cut payrolls, thus increasing their profits, while decreasing the wages and thus the ability of consumers to drive the economy.

Though I'm sure Minnesotasmith thinks otherwise the miracle that drove the American economy in the first years after war ended the big depression was the rise of unions that fought for a living wage for workers.

As unions lose power we are in trouble. Without unions or some other mechanism for keeping consumers prosperous our economy can do nothing except stagnate.

Weary

Ok people- I dont know a lot but i do know this much.Go take a look at the
socialist/communist countries and compare their standard of living for the
"average Joe Sixpack" to our capitalist "mass production" driven society and
tell me why every joker in the world is trying to move over here,including some who risk their very lives to do so,if we have not created a system that is the very envy of the world.Oh,and any of you who would like to leave,like Ward Churchill, i have a little slogan for ya-Delta is ready when you are!
Cheers to all,
Oldfivetango

[icemanat95]

This crap is why I no longer waste much of my time around here.

[MOWGLI]

Have you ever noticed the egomaniacs like Weary...they think the're experts on everything. He's always right on everything and puts down anyone who doesn't agree with him. Maybe it's his brain that's getting weary with his old age and senility setting in.

There is no reason to resort to that sort of dialogue.

[oldfivetango]

You're right and I retract my statement about stockholders being paid first. I guess what I was trying to point out is that unions continue to demand more and more while members are contributing less and less. They get $30+ an hour, fully paid health care, cost of living increases, time and a half and double time for overtime, etc...it goes on and on. It's gotten to the point they don't know what to demand...things like covered parking lots, walkways and air conditioned plants...no joke. It's still the stockholders' investment that is at risk and they should be rewarded with as much return as possible AFTER employees and management are rewarded for their contributions. The company does NOT belong to the employees. I do stand by the rest of the post. I still believe unions have done more to chase jobs out of Ohio than any President, past or present.

colt4x5...there are many examples of companies getting concessions from their unions to "save plants." At Sandusky, they negotiated a $16 million investment (I believe) to modernize the plant in order to obtain new business. The union never fullfilled their part, balking on instituting the productivity improvements. I know..."shame on management" for trusting that they would live up to their part of the bargain.

PATCO and others...I will do my best to get back to talking AT and hiking...but I can't promise anything.

I think the president of Toyota summed it up better than anyone if ever heard-paraphrasing he said something like this-"So how can a guy making $6 dollars an hour buy a car from a guy making $30 dollars an hour?"IMHOthe sooner everybody acknowledges that competition and greed drive the whole economic engine the better off we all will be.Thanks for listening.
Oldfivetango