But Weary, isn't that why we have the (politically corrected) media? To do our thinking for us?Originally Posted by weary
Weren't the houses in the process of being built? Were any occupied?
The people who did that probably feel they are striking back at a cold machine that won't give their concerns a second's notice. My main point in discussing their viewpoint is to show how an economic machine that pretty much intends to do the job on American open space over the next half century deals with this kind of matter. Our media is pretty much politicized and corrupted. Our economic program depends on a stable profile of people who pretty much buy into and don't question the fully-intended deforestation and destruction of a good percentage of our open space. This is simply progress and its interconnectedness with our economic system is undeniable. As a matter of fact, in a perverse way, sprawl equals progress and GNP fulfillment. Our nation measures itself on its economic strength. If you study our economy it is heavily dependent on continuous growth. That continuous growth is sprawl. Sprawl is now starting to take a toll on our environment and quality of life. The machine's answer to this is silent encouragement of more. Our system is geared towards growth and progress. Governments raise taxes and markets play for gains. The material form this takes is physical expansion of human impact. In short, continued destruction of natural areas equals economic goals fulfilled. Even shorter, our primitive system is a gigantic environmental Ponzi scam that is now starting to prove its value in terms of world decline. This scam is guarded by all of our powers that be, our highest forms of government, best minds, and self descriptions.A bunch of patchouli smelling tree hugging hippies setting fire to houses is ABSOLUTELY no different than a bunch of bigots getting together to burn down a colored church when noone is in it. I bet you wouldn't be beating your chest and praising that type of 'terrorism would you?
If this is allowed to progress to its end, the world won't end all at once. It will slowly become a place of very little environmental integrity with decreasing diversity and less quality of life due to lack of open space and resources. We're literally in a state of "future shock" because our outdated system has existed beyond earth's ability to sustain it. Sadly, and predictably, a regressive political movement is trying to solve this by forcing these outdated methods harder on a shrinking plane.
If they catch these guys they'll jail them and probably lobby for harsher punishments. Then they'll bury them. The media will never recognize or advertise their doings simply because that doesn't fit the economic game-plan or profile that has already planned to buy and sell what they are fighting to preserve. Maybe our homeland security will use new powers to enact measures against these groups labelling them a threat to our national security. Again, media coverage of this will be factual and matter of fact, short and then forgotten. Or maybe it will be wiser just to bury it all together. Their cause, however, will probably get no coverage or discussion as it didn't here in this thread.
As wrong as I know it is, I can't help but think of this in terms of deforestation without representation. Especially when allegedly law abiding people refuse to discuss the end game of earth-altering sprawl. To me that seems a much greater violation of human contracts. A much more insidious one.
The people who burned negro churches did it because they wanted to keep the old ways. Let the old machine purr along. There were a full set of laws to justify them. I wonder who the government will come down harder on and why?
Blue Wacko
Blue Wacko, "Now I may be mistaken, but didn't you attack a thruhiker a few years ago?" --- While correct you fail to recognize that he was punished for this and was very apologetic and sorry. I would go into all the good he did before that ever happened, but it would fall upon ignorant ears in your case Wacko.
THE Mairnttt...Boys of Dryland '03 (an unplanned Billville suburb)
http://www.AT2003.com
[email protected]
http://www.myspace.com/hudson_hartson
Thank you Hudson, your hypocricy continues to be infinite.
Perhaps you need to renew that hobby and spend less time at the keyboard attacking people like me who oppose MacKaye-style windmills in Maine.
What I wrote to you over two years ago is [still] true -
Think about it, R&R. [go ahead, try...] Have you ever posted a trip report? No. A gear list? No. A bio? No. [still no, no, and no.] Trail condition update? No. [Still no.] A book review? No. [still no.] A Trail advocacy alert? No... [on a list created for Trail Advocacy, you never proposed a single project. And you still have not.]
But how often do your posts refer to 'Wingfoot' or 'Trailplace'? [See your last post] Can't you see how much of your world [still] revolves around sitting at your keyboard typing
about how the at-l [and now WhiteBlaze] doesn't care about the Trail? Typing about how we [and now WhiteBlaze members] are
beneath your standards of trail ethics? Typing about how great WF and TP
were? [now here on WhiteBlaze too] Typing about how you [still] know more about MacKaye than any of us? [now here on WhiteBlaze too] Typing about how anyone who disagrees with you is doing so just because of 'personal reasons'? [now here on WhiteBlaze too] Can't you see? [Apparently not...]
One last question, R&R. [yet to be answered] If my opinion [still] means so little to you, why have you become [and remain] obsessed with it? [to the extent of becoming nothing more than an Internet stalker?]
Teej
"[ATers] represent three percent of our use and about twenty percent of our effort," retired Baxter Park Director Jensen Bissell.
Weary, at what age did you close your mind?
Teej
"[ATers] represent three percent of our use and about twenty percent of our effort," retired Baxter Park Director Jensen Bissell.
So has the investigation narrowed down any suspects? I did read a report on CNN stating that they suspect an environmental group. Obviously speculation and yellow journalism. Why did they not mention a subcontractor who was cheated, a disgruntled employee or a bunch of stupid teenagers? "liberal" "environmentalist" "terrorist" are buzzwords that got our attention but it is only speculation.
Does anyone have any facts?
On and on the BS goes. 228 posts worth. Death to all hippy, terrorist felons.
Someone mentioned Chief Seattle's message to the U.S. Government when it demanded the Indians "sell" their land. The following is not Chief Seattle's original letter, since he made a speech in reply to the United States in 1854 and did not write a letter. His speech was first transcribed from memory in the 1870s, and later revised again with some dramatic license. However, the following probably captures the essense of what Chief Seattle said in his 1854 speech --
How can you buy or sell the sky, the warmth of the land? That idea is strange to us. If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?
Every part of this earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy in the memory and experience of my people. The sap which courses through the trees carries the memory of the red man.
The white man's dead forget the country of their birth when they go to walk among the stars. Our dead never forget this beautiful earth, for it is the mother of the red man. We are part of the earth and it is part of us. The perfumed flowers are our sisters, the deer, the horse, the great eagle, these are our brothers. The rocky crests, the juices in the meadows, the body heat of the pony, and man - all belong to the same family.
So, when the Great Chief in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land, he asks much of us. The Great Chief sends word he will reserve us a place so that we can live comfortably to ourselves. He will be our father and we will be his children.
So we will consider your offer to buy our land. But it will not be easy. For this land is sacred to us. This shining water that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water but the blood of our ancestors. If we sell you land, you must remember that it is sacred, and you must teach your children that it is sacred and that the ghostly reflection in the clear water of the lakes tells us events and memories in the life of my people.
The water's murmur is the voice of my father's father. The rivers are our brothers, they quench our thirst. The rivers carry our cannoes, feed our children. If we sell our land, you must learn, and teach your children, that the rivers are our brothers, and yours, and you must henceforth give the rivers the kindness you would give any brother.
We know that the white man does not understand our ways. One portion of the land is the same to him as the next, for he is a stranger who comes in the night and takes from the land whatever he needs. The earth is not his brother, but his enemy, and when he has conquered it, he moves on. He leaves his father's grave behind, and he does not care. He kidnaps the earth from his children, and he does not care. His father's grave and his children's birthright are forgotten.
He treats his mother, the earth, and his brother, the sky, as things to be bought, plundered, sold like sheep or bright beads. His appetite will devour the earth and leave behind only a desert.
I do not know. Our ways are different than yours. The sight of your cities pains the eyes of the red man. There is no quiet place in the white man's cities. No place to hear the unfurling leaves in spring, or the rustle of an insect's wings. But perhaps it is because I am a savage and do not understand.
The clatter only seems to insult the ears. And what is there to life if man cannot hear the lonely cry of the whippoorwill or the arguments of the frogs around a pond at night? I am red man and do not understand.
The Indian prefers the soft sound of the wind darting over the face of a pond, and the smell of the wind itself, cleaned by a mid-day rain, or scented by the pinon pine. The air is precious to the red man, for all things share the same breath - the beast, the tree, the man, they all share the same breath.
The white man does not seem to notice the air he breathes. Like a man dying for many days is numb to the stench. But if we sell you our land, you must remember that the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all the life it supports. The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also receives his last sigh. And if we sell you our land, you must keep it apart and sacred, as a place where even the white man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow's flowers.
So we will consider your offer to buy our land. If we decide to accept, I'll make one condition, the white man must treat the beasts of this land as his brothers. I am a savage and I do not understand any other way.
I have seen a thousand rotting buffalos on the prairie, left by the white man who shot them from a passing train. I am a savage and I do not understand how the smoking iron horse can be more important than the buffalo that we kill only to stay alive. What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, man would die from a great loneliness of spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.
You must teach the children that the ground beneath their feet is the ashes of your grandfathers. So that they will respect the land, tell your children that the earth is rich with the lives of our kin. Teach your children what we have taught our children, that the earth is our mother.
Whatever befalls the earth, befalls the sons of the earth. If men spit upon the ground, they spit upon themselves. This we know, the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth. This we know.
All things are connected like the blood which unites one family. All things are connected. Whatever befalls the earth, befalls the sons of the earth. Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.
Even the white man, whose God walks and talks with him as friend to friend, cannot be exempt from the common destiny. We may be brothers after all. We shall see. One thing we know, which the white man may discover one day - our God is the same God.
You may think you know that you own Him as you wish to own our land, but you cannot. He is the God of man, and His compassion is equal for the red man and the white. This earth is precious to him, and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its Creator.
The whites too shall pass, perhaps sooner than all other tribes. Contaminate your bed, and you will one night suffocate in your own waste. But in your perishing you will shine brightly, fired by the strength of the God who brought you to this land and for some special purpose gave you dominion over this land and over the red man.
That destiny is a mystery to us, for we do not understand when the buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses are tamed, the secret corners of the forest heavy with the scent of many men, and the view of the ripe hills blotted by talking wires.
Where is the thicket? Gone. Where is the eagle? Gone. The end of living and beginning of survival. -- Chief Sealth (Seattle)
Last edited by steve hiker; 12-13-2004 at 16:56.
"Researchers of biodiversity agree that we are in the midst of the sixth mass extinction. Even if the current rate of habitat destruction were to continue in forest and coral reefs alone, half the species of plants and animals would be gone by the end of the 21st century. Our descendents would inherit a biologically impoverished and homogenized world."
"Not only would there be many fewer life forms, but also faunas and floras would look much the same over large parts of the world, with disaster species such as fire ants and rats widely spread. Humanity would then have to wait millions of years for natural evolution to replace what was lost in a single century."
--Time Magazine, May 2000 special edition
Steve,
Thanks for sharing that quote from Chief Seattle. Very moving.
www.ridge2reef.org -Organic Tropical Farm, Farm Stays, Group Retreats.... Trail life in the Caribbean
Washington Post quote of Capt. Joseph Montminy of the Charles County Sheriff's Office: Montminy said investigators have not ruled out this motive. "The size of the crime is similar, and [ELF] has a history of doing arsons. We'd have to consider that," he said.
Yeah, the Post is full of folks looking to knock liberals and environmentalists...
The police are working the case, and they have plenty of leads right now, including matchbooks, rigged homes that didn't torch, and surveillance video of area gas stations looking to find people filling a large number of milk jugs and cooking oil bottles. By now, or soon, they probably know the brand of gasoline used, and can begin to focus a bit more on that. I don't know if the DC area requires a boutique blend of fuel this time of year, but that could narrow it down a bit more. The unburned jugs or bottles might also yield a lot number which could determine where they were purchased. From my layman's perspective, that's just a few things that could be used to find the criminals. I wish the investigators well.
An urban legend
While this speech is indeed moviing, it is an urban legend that Chief Seattle wrote it/said it.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/seattle.htm
To quote in part "The words Chief Seattle has become famous for were written by Ted Perry, the screenwriter for Home, a 1972 film about ecology. They have since been widely quoted in books, on TV, and from the pulpit. A children's book, Brother Eagle, Sister Sky: A Message From Chief Seattle, sold 280,000 within the first six months of its 1991 issue."
And a brief excerpt from the U of Washington:
"The speech given by Chief Seattle in January of 1854 is the subject of a great deal of historical debate. The most important fact to note is that there is NO VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT IN EXISTENCE. All known texts are second-hand."
And it goes on to say the various versions from over the years. The first version is from 1887. The one that everyone quotes is from 1971!
Again, from the U of Washington website:
"Version 3 is perhaps the most widely known of all. This version was written by Texas professor Ted Perry as part of a film script. The makers of the film took a little literary license, further changing the speech and making it into a letter to President Franklin Pierce, which has been frequently reprinted. No such letter was ever written by or for Chief Seattle.
[Version 3 begins: The Great Chief in Washington sends word that wishes to buy our land. The Great Chief also sends us words of friendship and goodwill. This is kind of him, since we know he has little need of our friendship in return. But we will consider your offer. For we know that if we do not sell, the white man may come with guns and take our land. How can you buy or sell the sky, the warmth of the land? The idea is strange to us. ...] "
Version 4 appeared in an exhibit at Expo '74 in Spokane, Washington, and is a shortened edition of Dr. Perry's script (Version 3).
[Version 4 begins: The President in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land. Buy our land! But how can you buy or sell the sky? the land? The idea is strange to us. ...] ... "
Thanks for the reply. I have also read that racism may be a motive. I suspect that arrests or a man hunt will be underway in a few days. I have not heard much about ELF (Earth Liberation Front) they seem to be anarchist.Washington Post quote of Capt. Joseph Montminy of the Charles County Sheriff's Office: Montminy said investigators have not ruled out this motive. "The size of the crime is similar, and [ELF] has a history of doing arsons. We'd have to consider that," he said.
Yeah, the Post is full of folks looking to knock liberals and environmentalists...
The police are working the case, and they have plenty of leads right now, including matchbooks, rigged homes that didn't torch, and surveillance video of area gas stations looking to find people filling a large number of milk jugs and cooking oil bottles. By now, or soon, they probably know the brand of gasoline used, and can begin to focus a bit more on that. I don't know if the DC area requires a boutique blend of fuel this time of year, but that could narrow it down a bit more. The unburned jugs or bottles might also yield a lot number which could determine where they were purchased. From my layman's perspective, that's just a few things that could be used to find the criminals. I wish the investigators well.
If this was truely an act of civil disobedience to protect the magnaolia swamp habitat then they are a bit late....the trees are cutdown, the land is excavated, asphalt poured, the sewer, water, gas, electricity lines are in. The destruction is done. I would guess that true monkey wrenching would have occured much sooner.
Political "debunking"
Mags --
Maybe there is no verbatim transcript because Chief Seattle spoke it, and his words were translated by assistants of the Great White Father. Nitpicking aside, the message is very moving and relevant to our times.
I also note that the corporate establishment is very active in "debunking" messages they find threatening. This debunking of the words (or at least, the near words) of Chief Seattle is an example.
Another example of corporate debunking concerns a documentary on the effects of Chernobyl on the surrounding communities, by an amatuer photographer in the Ukraine last year. The presentation appeared on the net because she couldn't finance a U.S. style presentation. The corporate mouthpiece L.A. Times then recklessly "debunked" it, asserting she hadn't even been in the reactor area. Turns out the Times debunking was based on a simple misunderstanding when her server went down for a few weeks.
But again, the authenticity of the letter is a red herring. The message is important.
Autheticity a red herring?
It is also faked from a 1971 movie script! Hardly nitpicking!
The "original" was written down in the 1870s..a good 30 yrs after Chief Seattle said his speed. I sincerely doubt that the American Victorian era speech was what Chief Seattle said. Much less a 1971 movie script!
I just detest urban legends becoming "fact".
[/QUOTE]I also note that the corporate establishment is very active in "debunking" messages they find threatening. This debunking of the words (or at least, the near words) of Chief Seattle is an example. [/QUOTE]
Snopes is hardly a corporate website. They debunk all matters of urban legends. I doubt the U of Washington is considred corporate as well.
Also hardly his "near words". The speech the 1971 MOVIE script is based on words written 30+ years after the speech by a person who did not even speak the language fluently! This same person who transcribed the speech (Again 30 years afterwards) has also been known to "improve" speeces. So we have
a) speech that may or may not have been said
b) a doctored speech written down by the non-fluent transcribe 30 yrs later
c) A speech commonly accepted as fact written for a movie 100 yrs after the first mis-translated speech.
>>But again, the authenticity of the letter is a red herring. The message is important.
Sorry, but I don't agree with that statement. If you are going to quote something and say that is a nice sentiment, fine. But my background is history. Urban legends, false history that that we regard as true, etc. is something I do not care for. If we start accepting false history as true then we are down a slippery slope. I don't care which side of the spectrum you are on.
If you want to be accurate:
"The following is generally attributed to Chief Seattle, though it is verbatim from a 1971 movie script. Though Chief Seattle never said the words, I do believe it is something worth reading".
(As a side note: I've been bashed by liberals as too corporate. Conservatives call me a bleeding heart. Geez..make up your mind people.
Well, I don't think I have, but that is something that others can better judge than those with closed minds. What makes you think I have a closed mind, TJ?
Weary
Dubunking -- hidden agenda?
Mags --
If Chief Seattle made his speech in 1854 and it was first written down (from memory) in the 1870s, haven't you made a math error? Yes, by a mile. Thus, I declare you unworthy of credit in any future discussion on this topic.
Just kidding Mags. But this type of knitpicking, along with yours, detracts from the message. That is the goal of debunkers -- find some technical point to argue, and hope to thereby discredit the entire message/report/study etc.
It is undisputed that Chief Seattle made a speech on this topic in 1854. The letter probably captures the essense of what he said, even if dramatic license was taken with the translations.
More to the point Mags, are you upset only on technical grounds, or do you have a beef with the pro-environmental sentiment in the letter?
I was also a history major. The way history is written is also history. The role of history often times is to construct an identiy based on the past. Don't confuse 'em with the facts. So the speeches, stories and lore have thier base in facts but need to extend far beyond to reach whatever purpose. So the reality of facts behind Chief Seatle's speech , the Reserection of Christ or Washington crossing the Deleware is irrelevent. It is the common sentiment and collective identity behind these events that define an environemental movement, religion, or national identity. So any argument over who said what and when or if it really happened is irrelavent because the train has already left the station.
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