Vest Vs Jacket:

[burntoutphilosopher]

what do people think?

is a vest really able to keep your core as warm as a jacket? am i going to end up hiking with frozen and numb hands while being in no danger of hypothermia?


i've never worn a vest at all; always wore a nice puffy jacket. what % of the jackets weights are even the sleeves?


i'd love to open some healthy dialogue on this after seeing what just happened on the handgun thread ; )

[Tinker]

Vests are best used under other garments. When worn as an outer garment they can allow your arms to get cold which makes your core colder. A vest is valuable for use while hiking, but not a down vest as it would get damp from perspiration quickly. For around camp, underneath a wind or rain shell, vests will save you a few ozs. I carry a heavy fleece one for hiking when temps are not going to dip much below freezing. On my recent Pa. hike I carried a heavy (300 wt.) vest and mid-weight (200 wt.) vest.
Fwiw, my pack with food for five days, 1.5 liters of water (plus a one pound filter), including the clothing I was to wear came to 30 lbs. So fleece alone does not make for a heavy pack.

[Tinker]

I meant to type that I carried a 300 wt. vest and a 200 wt. jacket. I will be able to edit my posts when I get a paycheck and send in my "donation". I wonder if the address for snail mail donations is the same as last year.

[burntoutphilosopher]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF2LcqcF4Vk

when i do bush camping, i carry a 300wt fleece. i love my denali fleece, but the trail is not really 'camping' in the sense that i had previously thought of it.

i am looking at the mont-bell thermawrap model ... the parka, jacket and vest.

since i will have a paclite rainshell anyway; i am considering staying with a fleece jacket, but going with a more higher end technical thermal-Pro material of much lighter weight. both of those together should be good enough for any daytime temp (30f or up)

i could maybe take off 7 ounces just going with a lighter fleece.

[sbhikes]

The first place I get cold is my arms and I actually can stay warmer with arm warmers than a vest. So I carry a Patagonia down sweater, a Houdini and a pair of arm warmers, which are basically just cut off sleeves from a very light fleece sweatshirt. With those three, I've got enough combinations to handle just about anything 3-season-wise.

[IronGutsTommy]

you basically said it all in your question/original comment. vests are good for keeping your core warm but appendiges like arms and legs get colder and numb first as they are furthest from the heart and therefore have less circulation. otherwise the above posters all make good comments that I cannot really add anything to. i like sbhikes arm sleeve idea i have an old fleece I may attack with scissors soon.

[leaftye]

The last time I hiked with a jacket on was about 10 years ago. I was around 7% body fat at the time. It was snowing lightly and sticking. Actually, the jacket was a fleece. It felt comfy, but after a while I looked at my girdle and noticed that my sweat was condensing and freezing to my fleece...not good. I took the fleece off and was quite comfortable. Ever since I've hiked without any insulation.

That said, I'd like to try using a vest some time. I'll probably make it myself and go with synthetic insulation for cost, and to trade some of the weight savings for moisture insurance even though I'm not worried about getting it wet.

[Dogwood]

is a vest really able to keep your core as warm as a jacket?

Probably not. But don't think of a vest, or for that matter a jacket, as a stand alone piece of gear. Consider either piece as part of a larger clothing ensemble. For me, utilizing accessories and layering effectively, go hand in hand with using a vest. They are the name of the game, for me! That's what works for me.

am i going to end up hiking with frozen and numb hands while being in no danger of hypothermia?

Having cold hands is not totally dependent upon whether one is wearing a jacket or a vest. If you are concerned about cold hands use a vest or a jacket with hand pockets and/or UL Windstopper gloves or hand gear equivalent for the temps and conditions. My Manzella UL Silk wt gloves weigh less than 3 oz, have a double ended plastic clip that attaches my gloves securely to the D-Ring on my ULA Conduit pack's shoulder harness for easy on-the-go access or out of the way storage, disappear into my pack by compressing into a size smaller than a baseball, add versatility, and are warmth specific to my hands. When I opt for a vest I typically include a beanie. It's amazing how much warmer my hands can feel when I eliminate heat loss from other parts of my body like feet and head! That's another reason why I desire warm(not hot and sweaty) and dry feet!

BTW, I've had and have several outer torso pieces, including rain gear, with and without hand pockets. I prefer hand pockets on my outer torso layers, especially if I think it has the potential to get colder and/or windier. For example, I like the added warmth and dryness that hand pockets afford. Even in summer, in a long duration or heavy rain, I find the extra warmth and/or dryness of handpockets on my rain gear to be helpful managing my body temp.


...what % of the jackets weights are even the sleeves?

Not much but for gram counting weenies leaving forearms exposed is a good trade off between wt and warmth because, after all, how much body heat is lost through your forearms? Again, if I leave my forearms exposed, like I do when wearing a Mont Bell UL Down Inner Half Sleeve Jacket or vest I typically include UL gloves and beanie. I get a lot of flexibility in managing my core temp and extremities this way. It works for me. BTW, I don't use my MB Half Sleeve very often anymore because MB and several other clothing companies have introduced other torso pieces that are as light or lighter in wt as the MB Half Sleeve with nearly equal or even greater warmth. My MB UL Down Inner Jacket w/ long sleeves and hand pockets in XL weighs in at 6 oz.

For me, I largely achieve temp management by matching the clothing for the conditions that I think I'm most likely to expect on the hike, having flexibility and versatility in my various layering pieces and accessories, being acutely and consistently aware of it so I can add/delete clothing pieces and accessories as needed BEFORE I get too hot/cold, utilizing all the venting options of my gear(zips, snaps, flaps, arm pit vents, other vents, zip off legs on convertible pants, etc., I notice many hikers not totally familiar with or utilizing all their venting options with their gear!, they are often the same hikers who will be the first to complain about the breathability of their gear) BEFORE I get too hot/cold, and altering my pace(which I notice very few hikers doing to adjust core temp) BEFORE I get too hot/cold/profusely perspire. There are additional ways to manage core temp!

Vests are best used under other garments. When worn as an outer garment they can allow your arms to get cold which makes your core colder. A vest is valuable for use while hiking, but not a down vest as it would get damp from perspiration quickly. For around camp, underneath a wind or rain shell, vests will save you a few ozs. I carry a heavy fleece one for hiking when temps are not going to dip much below freezing. On my recent Pa. hike I carried a heavy (300 wt.) vest and mid-weight (200 wt.) vest.

Use a vest as best you know how. I employ vests as both outer and middle layer pieces, I think, very effectively. As long as I'm rightly matching my entire clothing system to the conditions of the hike I don't blame vests for allowing myself to get cold. I blame poor temp management practices by myself. I don't allow my down vests to get unduly damp from perspiration. I would take a vest off BEFORE it got unduly damp from perspiration! If I could, and I often can, I delete clothing and accessories, or do some combination of what I mention above BEFORE I get drenched with perspiration. What also prevents my down loft from collapsing/getting damp/drenched with sweat in my down vests that I hike in is that almost all have a somewhat protective shell fabric, like my RAB Down vest, which has a Pertex Microlight shell. I can hike in this vest in light mist and it still does not wet out. Unless, it's very hot, humid, I have an untypically heavy load, I'm pushing hard uphill, or I'm pushing my pace without caring whether or not I'm profusely perspiring you will rarely see me drenched in sweat while backpacking. I notice some gung-ho off-to-the-races hikers who refuse to slow down/alter their pace or stop to change/alter their gear so they can better manage their core temps!

If fleece is the material that works for you great. No doubt, it has advantages in some situations. For example, when matching all my clothing to the most expected weather conditions on a hike, I might opt for a rather cheap more durable easier to part with fleece top on a remote nasty backcountry bushwack type hike. Fleece SHOULD be relatively inexpensive or, at least, less expensive than high quality down gear. Personally, I rarely to never use fleece vests on my thru-hikes anymore. I'll wear a fleece vest at home around town, but on a thru-hike, as long as I'm correctly matching my down piece to the trail conditions I expect, I much prefer the warmth to wt ratio and compressabilty of down. BTW, if one is perspiring in a down vest while hiking they would probably be perspiring in a fleece vest while hiking.

[Kerosene]

utilizing all the venting options of my gear(zips, snaps, flaps, arm pit vents, other vents, zip off legs on convertible pants, etc., I notice many hikers not totally familiar with or utilizing all their venting options with their gear!, they are often the same hikers who will be the first to complain about the breathability of their gear)

I have a pair of e-Vent rain pants that I wore in northern Tennessee in late October 2008 with temps of 10-40 degrees. I found that opening the fly and hand pockets when it wasn't pouring provided just enough of a bellows-effect to keep the air flowing down there and keep me from over-heating.

Needless to say, the pants were fully sealed up when I crossed the Roan Balds when it was 10 degrees and 40+ mph winds with 6" of snow, and I was just fine!

[garlic08]

My belief and experience is that a vest is very effective in core warmth retention, when used correctly, as many others have pointed out. It's not only the weight saved over a jacket, it's bulk as well. The smaller garment allows me to carry a smaller and lighter pack.

I never carry "puffy" insulation for the legs, either, for the same reason.

Hikers I meet who carry a sleeved jacket also often carry insulated pants, and they also tend to enjoy sitting around a campsite more than I do. With my hiking style, if it's cold I'm either moving or in my sleeping bag.

On the AT in Spring, I carried an 8 oz. down vest mainly as a backup to the sleeping bag, in case the unimaginable happened and the bag got compromised. I wore it a few times for longer breaks and while packing up in the morning, never while hiking. It was real nice to have those few times and I'm glad I had it. Curiously, I didn't carry the vest on the longer western trails and never missed it.

[Dogwood]

Kerosene, that was a good example of being aware of and utilizing the venting options of your rain pants! Opening the fly was something I never thought of! Creative! I suppose you have to be careful with that venting option that Mr Happy doesn't make an unwanted appearance though! And, to increase venting you opted for e-Vent material rain pants which, to my knowledge, is the most breathable truly WP material under the widest backpacking weather extremes.

My hiking style is much like yours Garlic. I usually don't spend much time sitting around camp. If it's cold I'm usually moving or in my sleeping bag. I don't carry a jacket specifically, mainly, or only for camp. It seems redundant to me when I have a sleeping bag to crawl into that will give me warmth while in camp. I will usually hike from about 6:30 -7 a.m. until after sunset. I will wear at least some of my clothing in my sleeping bag. I consider my vest as another possible component of an entire sleep system. I like to use as much of my gear as often as possible and often use one piece of gear in multiple ways if I can. I guess this hiking style/process has evolved from my experiences with UL thru-hiking.

Since we are discussing temp management, which I think one should be aware of and know how to alter, maintain, and achieve, maybe, even more so if utilizing a vest, I notice some hikers who don't take full advantage of their rain gear to manage core temp. In some ways I think we need to rethink about how we think about rain gear! IMO, rain gear should not be thought of just as a piece of gear for the rain! We don't normally think of rain gear as insulating pieces, and for the most part they are not, but that does not mean they can't help manage core temperature. For example, rain jackets help retain not only core warmth, but if they have a hood and hand pockets, which are warmth specific to hands and feet, two places where you can lose a great amount of heat, they will assist in managing body temps. If dry I will wear a rain jacket inside my sleeping bag to raise the temp rating of my bag. If on a cold windy exposed ridge crest out comes the rain jacket. Up comes the hood.

I would like to hear more about how some other hikers utilize a vest and manage body temps!

[Lyle]

I like vests for the increased freedom of movement, even for camp chores - I don't like feeling like a kid bundled up and unable to move by a cold-blooded Mom. :-) You have to have other long-sleeved options though, but I find my wool base layer with another longsleeved shirt or two and puffy vest underneath an outer layer will keep me pretty darn warm down into the single digits. Must also have hat/neck insulation and of course glove/mittens.

Down booties for real cold camp time also extend the comfort a lot - both while up and about and when in your sleeping bag. If I expect most nights to be downright cold, single digits and below zero, like here in Michigan and other northern areas, then a full-on down jacket is very much appreciated, usually without an outer shell unless it's snowing. I just don't appreciate an outer shell over a puffy long-sleeved layer for the most part.

I've stayed tolerably comfortable in 12 below temps during a major blizzard in the Virginia mountains in early spring with the wool/down vest combo and good gloves/mittens and balaclava along with down booties. We were protected from the most severe wind.

If I don't stay warm with the above layers, then it's time for the sleeping bag. My goal when packing is to stay comfortable in the conditions expected during a trip, and survive the conditions reasonably possible. This can be pretty cold/wet/windy even in the south when in the mountains.

Just to clarify, my comments are for warmth in camp. While hiking, just the wool base layers and maybe a synthetic shirt or two suffice. If it's windy or I'm still cold while hiking, adding rain gear as a wind break/warmth trapper has always done the trick. One of the big mistakes I see people do is not recognize how warm they will become as soon as they get moving. They leave their insulating layers on in the AM, don't want to stop 15 or 20 minutes into the day to strip down, so they just tough it out and end up with damp insulation the following night. Not a good plan. Go ahead and strip down to what you know will be comfortable once you get moving and tough it out for a few minutes.

[peter_pan]

No need to choose...

JRB makes down filled sleeves... 5 oz...when added to any vest you have a full jacket... Add a JRB down Hood ... 2 oz and you have a Hoodie or parka depending on length of vest...

A lot of versitility...Think about it prior to the 1800s all jackets were vests with attached sleeves...

And all the pieces can be worn separately ... sleeves can even be worn as down sleep socks at night... toastie...

Remember, I'm biased but these are just simple facts.

Pan

[leaftye]

My hiking style is much like yours Garlic. I usually don't spend much time sitting around camp. If it's cold I'm usually moving or in my sleeping bag. I don't carry a jacket specifically, mainly, or only for camp. It seems redundant to me when I have a sleeping bag to crawl into that will give me warmth while in camp. I will usually hike from about 6:30 -7 a.m. until after sunset. I will wear at least some of my clothing in my sleeping bag. I consider my vest as another possible component of an entire sleep system. I like to use as much of my gear as often as possible and often use one piece of gear in multiple ways if I can. I guess this hiking style/process has evolved from my experiences with UL thru-hiking.

I'm somewhat like this too. I usually start hiking at least an hour before sunrise and hike until about an hour before sunset or until sunset...especially now that the days are so short. My breaks are short, so I don't cool off much. I always carry a down jacket, but lately I've been wondering why I bother since I rarely don it. I don't wear much to sleep because I have a cuben fiber quilt. This is why I'd like to experiment with a synthetic vest. It wouldn't be as much of a weight penalty if I never used it and it might be somewhat suitable to wearing to bed if the temperature dropped below zero. I guess it's a pillow if nothing else.

Here's the vest I would build:
http://thru-hiker.com/kits/minima_kit.php

[sbhikes]

No need to choose...

JRB makes down filled sleeves... 5 oz...when added to any vest you have a full jacket... Add a JRB down Hood ... 2 oz and you have a Hoodie or parka depending on length of vest...

A lot of versitility...Think about it prior to the 1800s all jackets were vests with attached sleeves...

And all the pieces can be worn separately ... sleeves can even be worn as down sleep socks at night... toastie...

Remember, I'm biased but these are just simple facts.

Pan

Oooh. Down sleeves. Toasty. Anything that makes me feel toasty is goooood. Those Jacks R Better people really are awesome. Someday I'll have some of their stuff.

[Montana AT05]

Depends on use and purpose.

Sitting around a camp for long hours, long prep time in the AM for the day's hike--then a full jacket is best. Montbell makes amazingly comfortable, warm, light and small volume jackets.

Vests are for your core. If I count on jacket for added warmth as I sleep, I prefer a vest--more mobile and I don't overheat. Also I can start a hike with the vest and not overheat as much. I find my extremities don't get cold easily and even a standard hiking long sleeve shirt is enough even in chilly weather.

Montbell also makes a middle ground version--a short sleeved vest if you will. They did extensive tests on heat loss and discovered that adding the short sleeves they accounted almost all of the heat loss of a traditional vest.

http://www.prolitegear.com/montbell_...hs_jacket.html

Downside to it is that you will likely never wear it outside of hiking.

Also, here is some cool concept jackets and gear.

http://lokigear.com/index.php

I've never any of it, but the options seem nice.