Tarptent question

[sir limpsalot]

Can you sense my frustration here? I WANT A TARPTENT! but i don't want to settle! i want a smaller shelter in my pack: i use trekking poles, i don't need to carry tent poles. i want a reasonably small footprint. the current designs out on the market are great. i'm willing to give up freestanding to get a 2# shelter. but, and i don't think i'm being unreasonable here, I DON'T WANT TO GET WET IN MY TENT WHEN IT RAINS OUT! i don't want to have to wake up and sponge my tent every few hours. i don't want to have to have a waterproof sleeping bag. and, to be honest, i don't want to have to seam-seal my new tent. i mean, ***, do you seam seal your new raincoat? roof your new house yourself? caulk your new boat yourself? comeon !
At 3500mm(and i'd wager even better is avail.), if lightheart gear's gray solo was big enough, i'd buy it in a minute (and pay the extra to have it sealed) . i see so many terrific tarp shelters out there, but the basic requirement of staying dry can't be provided with assurance. i can't be alone here, lurking in the wings...waiting for a better product.

[Cedar Tree]

10K - Sorry I didn't see your question. (I've been busy sewing). My manufactured tents are made in China. When my business got to the point that I just couldn't sew fast enough, I went about looking for a place to have them made. It is very difficult to find out this stuff. People that have similar business can be very tight lipped and refuse to tell you their sources for materials, services etc. I don't quite understand why this is, but that's the way it is. I searched and searched, found one or two places in the states, but the quality from these places was not up to my standards (it was pretty lousy). I finally did hit on a very reliable manufacturer with a very good reputation that is quite close to me geographically, They were very interested in manufacturing the tents, but to have them made here they would have charged me 3 times what you are now paying for the tent. That's just not acceptable economics. They also wanted much much larger minimums than I could afford. I would have loved to have had them made here, but American companies make it very difficult for the small entrepreneurs to get small quantities. The minimums are so large that it makes it almost impossible for the small company to get what they need. I am working on some group buys with other small companies to get the products I need, but that too is a big hassle. ).

Thanks for the explanation Judy. I could not have said it better myself. I had 2 US companies manufacture the Packa before I signed on with Big Agnes. My sales have long surpassed my sewing capability. The price for me is not a huge difference. Its a little cheaper made in China, but not that much. However, the quality is infinitely better. Plus, the customer service is infinitely better too. Although BA handles everything for me, I do deal directly with the manufacturer in China when I need to make a change or have an issue. Response from China is always quick and polite, very much UNLIKE what I used to have to endure with my former US supplier. Like Judy said, I feel I did all I could to stay US made. But the quality was lousy and the customer service was horrible too. I am very happy with Big Agnes. I still do modifications to the Packa myself.
Cedar Tree

[mark schofield]

I've had really good luck with my Contrail the last few years. Been in some fairly heavy rains (although in some wooded areas). The tent walls have sagged and misted a bit but not dripped on me (yet). However There must be a natural degradation of the material over time so I think I'll treat it with the silicone spray product before the start of this spring hiking season. It will probably add a few ounces..

[10-K]

Can you sense my frustration here? I WANT A TARPTENT! but i don't want to settle! i want a smaller shelter in my pack: i use trekking poles, i don't need to carry tent poles. i want a reasonably small footprint. the current designs out on the market are great. i'm willing to give up freestanding to get a 2# shelter. but, and i don't think i'm being unreasonable here, I DON'T WANT TO GET WET IN MY TENT WHEN IT RAINS OUT! i don't want to have to wake up and sponge my tent every few hours. i don't want to have to have a waterproof sleeping bag. and, to be honest, i don't want to have to seam-seal my new tent. i mean, ***, do you seam seal your new raincoat? roof your new house yourself? caulk your new boat yourself? comeon !
At 3500mm(and i'd wager even better is avail.), if lightheart gear's gray solo was big enough, i'd buy it in a minute (and pay the extra to have it sealed) . i see so many terrific tarp shelters out there, but the basic requirement of staying dry can't be provided with assurance. i can't be alone here, lurking in the wings...waiting for a better product.

Well, you're talking about a few different things here...

IMO, a singlewall tent should come with a sponge. You can't escape condensation unless you stop breathing. Every once in a while I'll get lucky and conditions will be just right and there will be very little or none but that's pretty rare.

With regards to the misting, I'm in semi-agreement with you. I would not knowingly buy a shelter that had this issue. But, now that I have, I've found a way to deal with it which addresses the problem so that problem is solved.

I guess I got lucky if you want to call it that. The storm we were in was intense... I could have used my Rainbow for a long time without every even being aware of the misting characteristic so I don't expect it to be a big problem anyway.

[sir limpsalot]

Well, you're talking about a few different things here...
with regards to the misting, I'm in semi-agreement with you. I would not knowingly buy a shelter that had this issue.

just wanted to talk about the 800# gorilla in the thread.
up till reading this thread i had always assumed that the best sil-nylon on the market was being used and the the weaknesses of the product in regards to waterproofness were inherent. now, listening to some key players, it seems that there is superior syl-nylon....it's just not financially or ethically feasible for small manufacturers to use. i hope that this can be overcome. as a consumer, this would make a huge difference in my decisions.

[Singletrack]

Can you sense my frustration here? I WANT A TARPTENT! but i don't want to settle! i want a smaller shelter in my pack: i use trekking poles, i don't need to carry tent poles. i want a reasonably small footprint. the current designs out on the market are great. i'm willing to give up freestanding to get a 2# shelter. but, and i don't think i'm being unreasonable here, I DON'T WANT TO GET WET IN MY TENT WHEN IT RAINS OUT! i don't want to have to wake up and sponge my tent every few hours. i don't want to have to have a waterproof sleeping bag. and, to be honest, i don't want to have to seam-seal my new tent. i mean, ***, do you seam seal your new raincoat? roof your new house yourself? caulk your new boat yourself? comeon !
At 3500mm(and i'd wager even better is avail.), if lightheart gear's gray solo was big enough, i'd buy it in a minute (and pay the extra to have it sealed) . i see so many terrific tarp shelters out there, but the basic requirement of staying dry can't be provided with assurance. i can't be alone here, lurking in the wings...waiting for a better product.

I think many would agree. I do not know what the magic number is that would eliminate you getting wet, and not having to sponge down tent walls every rain storm. I am sure there are other factors. But compared to other tent makers, such as MSR and Big Agnes, 3500mm exceeds them. As far as the size of the Lightheart, they look huge to me. Especially the 2 person tent. They are double wall tents, and maybe this would help in controlling condensation. Just a thought.

[10-K]

Just to reiterate - the condensation issue in a single wall tent isn't because of the type of silnylon used.

The misting however is and can be solved if the right material is used.

I would like to know the logic behind knowingly using a material that is subject to the misting problem. What was achieved by making this sacrifice?

[Singletrack]

Just to reiterate - the condensation issue in a single wall tent isn't because of the type of silnylon used.

The misting however is and can be solved if the right material is used.

I would like to know the logic behind knowingly using a material that is subject to the misting problem. What was achieved by making this sacrifice?

Now, this is just a guess on my part. Go back a number of posts and reread the post by the poster from Australia. Where he asks questions to an expert over at BPL. The interviewee stated in essence, from what I can decipher, that there are better forms of silnylon, that are in Asia, that can only be purchased in 10,000 yd. rolls. He stated he would like for his next tent to be made from it.
I suggest, that maybe it is difficult, if not expensive to obtain this different and better silnylon. And possibly, it just became available. Again, I am just guessing.

[sir limpsalot]

I think many would agree. I do not know what the magic number is that would eliminate you getting wet, and not having to sponge down tent walls every rain storm. I am sure there are other factors. But compared to other tent makers, such as MSR and Big Agnes, 3500mm exceeds them. As far as the size of the Lightheart, they look huge to me. Especially the 2 person tent. They are double wall tents, and maybe this would help in controlling condensation. Just a thought.

-digging into big agnes fabric lore: they designed a proprietary tight woven sil-nylon with a bonded 1200mm pu coating for the copper spur series....don't know what the over-all hydrostatic head is, but i'll bet it's alot.
-the lightheart solo's a little small for me on a 2.5" pad. duo's too big a footprint for what i want
- condensation should be a considered factor when selecting a shelter design....i'm just complaining about the pourosity.

[FamilyGuy]

The BA tents have a hydrostatic head of 1200mm. However, PU coating tends to be more waterproof than comparable silnylon over prolonged rain. With the silnylon, the water will eventually saturate the silicon polymer - i.e. it is micro porous. This commentary is based on testing done by Roger Caffin over at BPL.com.

Because the BA tents are double walled, there is also the possibility that the mesh inner wall does stop some minute misting from entering the tent....

[FamilyGuy]

One other thing, there is an interesting discussion going on over at BPL.com that continues on, in many ways, from this discussion. Have a look:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=42687

[Sierra Echo]

The misting issue is interesting. Other then that, would you guys recommend a tarptent to someone?

[FamilyGuy]

The misting issue is interesting. Other then that, would you guys recommend a tarptent to someone?

Yes. Because despite what has been discussed above, it doesn't seem to happen for everyone or for some all the time. What you get is a very light, fully bug proof shelter and for many, any issues with 'misting' are acceptable.

[skinewmexico]

It's not like you get misting every time the sky gets cloudy. Geez, what a bunch of whiners.

[FamilyGuy]

Exactly. Although I get a little Misty when it rains....

[skinewmexico]

That BPL thread is pretty interesting; kind of alternates between some incredibly detailed testing and manufacturing data, and the typical forum pissing contest. I think I know more about silnylon and the physics of raindrops than I ever wanted to.

[FamilyGuy]

Yeah - it kind of went sideways. Some people believe that there were 'shots' taken at particular manufacturers but really it wasn't. More to understand the fabrics that are used in the products that we are buying.

Silnylon from the US seems to work just fine for 95% of the applications I use it. Because it is what is used by most cottage manufacturers it will continue to be what I use. I am willing to sacrifice some weatherproofing for the weight in some circumstances. In others, I am not.

[bigcranky]

The misting issue is interesting. Other then that, would you guys recommend a tarptent to someone?

Yes. I've been using Tarptent brand tarp tents since 2004, four different models, plenty of nights in the field in very bad weather. I've had the "misting" thing happen one time, and that was the worst thunderstorm and heaviest rain I have ever seen. The misting was not any sort of a serious problem that night.

[10-K]

The misting issue is interesting. Other then that, would you guys recommend a tarptent to someone?

That is a very good question. Would I recommend one..... hmmm.....

Probably not.

Not because I have an axe to grind with Tarptent and not because the tent isn't well designed.

All things being equal, and given that there are tents that don't mist that weigh in the same range I'd recommend something else.

I would love to have a TT Rainbow made out of the same silnylon as my Lunar Solo/Duo.

FWIW, I wouldn't recommend a Chevrolet to anyone either so it's not like my opinion really carries a lot of weight anyway.

[FamilyGuy]

That is a very good question. Would I recommend one..... hmmm.....

Probably not.

Not because I have an axe to grind with Tarptent and not because the tent isn't well designed.

All things being equal, and given that there are tents that don't mist that weigh in the same range I'd recommend something else.

I would love to have a TT Rainbow made out of the same silnylon as my Lunar Solo/Duo.

FWIW, I wouldn't recommend a Chevrolet to anyone either so it's not like my opinion really carries a lot of weight anyway.

I think everyone's opinion matters.

I take it you have never had misting with your Solo? How does your Solo compare to the Rainbow overall? Why did you also get a Rainbow? Thanks,