Bivy + Tarp a good option?

[Amanita]

As much as it may surprise some, I actually prefer to sleep in a shelter. So I'm trying to keep the "backup" I carry with me as light as possible. Looking at the TiGoat Raven Omni Bivy in combination with a small tarp. http://www.titaniumgoat.com/Omni-Bivy.html What are people's experiences with bivys? Is condensation a big issue? Are they comfy for a night or two at a time?

I carried a hammock on my section last spring, but only set it up when the shelters were full or very poorly spaced. Looking at some of the UL tents they seem like a pain to set up with all the line tensioning ect. And with my current set up being 24oz (w/o bug netting) I'd hate to move to something heavier. Also I already carry a ground pad for shelters, which works in a hammock but not as well. I figure a bivy could also be used inside a shelter to add a few degrees to my sleeping bag, making it dual purpose.

I like the idea of a low fiddle factor, and it's more a back up than plan A. If I know it's going to rain I try much harder to get to a shelter early enough it's not full. Any reasons why a bivy would be tricky or disappointing?

[Bati]

Unless it's truly winter, I recommend using a synthetic bag with a gore-tex bivy to prevent condensation issues.

The major disadvantages of a bivy are
-when you're camped in pay campground- it's difficult to find your campsite in the dark and tough to change clothes with a car-camping crowd
- when it's pouring down rain. You'll need to learn to assemble the bivy almost upside-down and shake the bag out to keep from getting wet in a downpour. Usually though, if you wait a while there will be a lull in the storm and you can set up or take down then.
- when it's extremely hot as you'll still want the bivy to protect from mosquitoes, but it can be tough to sleep. Be sure you have a hat or other method to keep the mesh off your face so you don't get bitten.
-if you're a deep sleeper. I've never had any issues waking up when the raindrops hit my face, but if you don't wake up easily, then a bivy isn't for you. Ditto if you're not able to redo the zipper and zipper cover should you shift sides on a stormy night. A tarp may solve these issues if it can withstand the storm
- if you're stuck in one for hours during a storm. My AT record was about 16 hours in bed one day, but we had a small tent (which wasn't necessarily lucky, as the 3-season tent couldn't handle the storm).

You might be counting on the tarp to help you out on these, and in most situations it will. However, high winds or deep snow can wreak havoc with that backup plan.

If you're out for a section hike when the weather should be temperate, the advantages (incredible stars, you can camp almost anywhere, light weight, easy to conceal your campsite if needed, quick set up and take down, extra warmth in shelters, no need to put on boots to remove snow) will far outweigh the disadvantages assuming you're the kind of person who likes a bivy. And unless there's a really bad storm, the tarp will solve many of comfort issues.

[daddytwosticks]

I'm a section hiker who also stays in shelters during the non-thru times of the year. This tends to be during the warmer months here down south (May - September). I too tend to take just a poncho-tarp or regular tarp when I plan on staying in shelters. During this time, I take a Six Moons Design Meteor bivy which works great in the shelters by keeping mice off me, keeping rain spray at bay, and adding a small amount of warmth.

[Slo-go'en]

To be really effective, you need a tarp at least 8X10. You also need suppports like hiking poles and stakes and guys, as it will not be too often you can actually set it up between trees. Setting up a tarp is going to take at least as long as setting up a tent.

For one extended trip, I used the Gatewood cape and an OR bug bivy. The cape was better shelter than a tarp, as it set up like a tent, but without a floor, which was provided by the bivy. The bivy could be used in a shelter and did add a couple of degrees to the bag rating, along with being a bug and critter barrier. The only problem was there isn't a whole lot of room under the Gatewood cape.

I now use a SMD luna solo, which is about the same weight as the cape/bivy set up and take up about the same amount of space in the pack. However, it gives me a lot more inside room.

[Tinker]

http://www.backcountrygear.com/tarpt...rptent-JumpFly

Low fiddle factor, light weight, lots of room, affordable (for what you get). My friend Chatter has one and has let me borrow it. It has to be one of the best thought out tents ever made. It would be an unbelievable tent in spinnaker cloth or cuben, but it's only offered in sil.

For the weight of a bivy and tarp (don't go smaller than 8x10 for the tarp or you'll find out what it's like to be double jointed when dealing with rain) it can't be beat(en).

Having a bona-fide tent will allow you to sleep away from shelters on buggy nights when the mosquitoes zero in on the shelter buffet (and camp near beautiful views, alone with best friends, etc).

Or, of course, you could use a complete hammock system (at more or less the same weight).

Tarp and bivy combinations are also not too effective on dealing with crawlies, especially ticks. Skunks will liven up a tentsite, though!

[Amanita]

Unless it's truly winter, I recommend using a synthetic bag with a gore-tex bivy to prevent condensation issues.

....

You might be counting on the tarp to help you out on these, and in most situations it will. However, high winds or deep snow can wreak havoc with that backup plan.

Being used to a hammock/tarp set up I've never really dealt with condensation issues. Will my bag slowly get damp over a few nights, or be actually wet? I have both down and synthetic bags but I generally prefer the down for weight reasons. Are there extra steps I can take to prevent condensation? (other than trying not to get hot/sweat in my bag, and not wear wet clothes into it).

Definitely not planning to push out into a snowstorm, If I get extremely unlucky I suppose I might get less than an inch of the white stuff. But at that shoulder season I'd expect to be in a shelter unless an emergency came up.

I'm willing to risk finding myself rendered "uncomfortable" (cramped, damp) by unforeseen weather, but I do not want to risk entering the realm of "dangerous" (bag getting truly wet).

I'll admit I have very little hiking experience, and most of that in a season where things weren't crowded and a stretch where shelters very common. I've never weathered more than a light overnight shower in my hammock. If I was planning more than eat, sleep, pack up, move on I doubt I'd spend the night in the bivy during foul weather.

The features I'm attracted to in a bivy are the weight and flexibility. If I'm spending the night without a shelter it's either unplanned or the forecast is good (and there's some compelling reason not to hit a shelter. maybe a view or bad spacing). In the event of unplanned, being able to find a 2ft by 6ft patch of flat ground and just tuck in sounds very appealing. Right now my plan B is two trees the right distance apart and 3 minutes tying knots, so I hope it's understandable that tarptents sound "fussy." Also like I said going up in weight is not at all appealing. If I want to "wait out" a storm or spend a zero I'd rather do it in a man made structure than carry an extra pound on the off chance that I want a little extra space. Minimal shelter is just one more reason to pack up and hike out early, rather than lazing about in the morning.

[bigcranky]

I've used a tarp and homemade bivy with great success. The tarp/bivy combo is quite versatile on the trail. My bivy is not waterproof on top, but instead is highly water resistant (Momentum .90 fabric.) The bottom is silnylon, and the upper third is noseeum mesh. It's very useful by itself in a shelter or cowboy camping. If the weather is bad, a 6x10 foot tarp provides a snug home. Given that the zpacks shaped tarp is about 4 ounces, I could easily get my whole shelter weight well below a pound with everything.

My bag does not get wet, though in certain conditions (very humid freezing temps with heavy frost) I can get frost on both the outside and inside of the bivy and all over the tarp.

A goretex or other fully waterproof bivy designed for climbing would be a problem, imho. My hiking partner has used one, and the condensation inside is intolerable.

[bigcranky]

Photo: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/...&imageuser=266

[Razor]

I have found that I am much dryer in a tarp than a tent because of condensation. It does take an effort and knowledge to set up right but here again there are advantages over tents if you do them right. i have a 6 oz tarp 1 0z stakes and sometimes carry my 6 oz bivy and a 1 oz groundsheet. Never been wet once with this setup. i do have problems with the bivy though because I roll around a lot. If you get serious about tarps -get Ray Jardines new tarp book ,But as always take his advice with with your experience to come up with your best practice methods.

[stranger]

I guess it comes down to flexibility, having a shelter system that will work in a variety of circumstances, yet will probably not be 'great' in any one situation.

The best system I've found for what you mention is the following:
- Six Moon Designs Wild Oasis
- Mountain Laurel Designs Superlight Bivy (full net option)

Here is why - the Wild Oasis will provide 360 protection from driving rain, plus it has perimeter netting to fend off the bugs, plus condensation will end up dripping though the netting and to the ground in most cases. Second, any bad site selection can we dealt with by having the bivy, which will offer very good protection from any wandering ground-water and or condensation. Third, the bivy can be used in shelters and be guyed off your face on those buggy nights, on it also adds protection on those nights when driving rain can find it's way to the bottom of your sleeping bag in a shelter. Finally, the weight of the tarp and bivy is right around 19 ounces, meaning even with 6 stakes and some Tyvek, you are probably still at only 24-26 ounces.

I can't think of another setup that will provide as much versatility for 3 season use.

[Tinker]

Beware of ticks. Spray the groundsheet with Permethrin. You won't be 100% sure of protection from the buggers, but at least you can say you did something to protect yourself.
This http://bearpawwd.com/shelters_floors/bug_bivy.html seems to be a nice bug shelter. It could be used in trailside shelters as well as under a tarp. At least you won't have the tarp slapping you in the side of the face on a windy, rainy night (happens sometimes with a small tarp and bivy).

[Amanita]

Will permethrin work on tyvek and other ground cloths? I thought it had to kind of soak into the fabric an I'm afraid it might hurt the dwr.

[Miner]

For the past few years, I've used a MountainLaurelDesigns Grace Solo tarp and their superlight bivy including a PCT thru-hike. The bivy is water resistant not water proof as its designed for the tarp to provide the main weather protection and the bivy just provides additional protection against spray. As a result though, the bivy breathes very well as condensation isn't an issue like it is with those heavy hot gortext bivy sacks

Not all lightweight bivy sacks are the same. Some are more breathable then others. The less beathable ones will have condensation. I've use a TitGoat bivy before. They are a nice bivy for the price. But, they aren't as breathable as the momentum fabric ones that MLD sells and will have more condensation as a result. The TitGoat ones block wind better as a result. I like that in the colder parts of fall and early spring in places that are known to be windy as you'll be warmer despite the wind chill, otherwise I'd rather have as breathable as possible.

What I like about a bivy/tarp system is:
-Lightweight (less then a pound for both) if you spend the money for the lighter weight fabrics.
-You can only use the part of it you want (if its not raining or in a shelter, you can just use the bivy). On my PCT thru-hike, I used my tarp 9times, but the bivy sack about 70% of the time.
-The bivy provides inssect proection
-Bivy sack will provide aditional warmth so a lighter sleeping bag can be carried.
-If its too hot for you sleeping bag, the bivy can be used as a lightweight bag.
-Can have less condensation then a tent or tarp tent if used properly (but requires more skill in bad weather to set up).\
-Quick setup if just using the bivy sack (stuff your sleeping bag in it and throw it down with your sleep pad).

I'm a lazy camper and mostly cowboy camp without setting up a shelter unless required so this type of system works well. As for the fiddle factor, not all lightweight shelters require alot of it once you know what your are doing though there is a learning curve involved.

[July]

Greyson Highlands 001.jpg "July" The Highlands of Greyson

[HiKen2011]

I'm a tarp guy, 8x10 equinox or sometimes a gatewood cape, both work well in 3 season

[pyroman53]

In the event of unplanned, being able to find a 2ft by 6ft patch of flat ground and just tuck in sounds very appealing. Right now my plan B is two trees the right distance apart and 3 minutes tying knots,

My experience has been that finding a suitable site for ground dwelling with a tarp might be harder than for any other shelter options. Unless there is little chance of heavy rain, site selection is key. It might be a bit easier with a bivy (I've never used one) but it doesn't take much to end up with a stream running through your site, especially in areas close to most AT shelters with hard packed soil. Not sure if a bivy would protect you in this case.

[Amanita]

The best system I've found for what you mention is the following:
- Six Moon Designs Wild Oasis
- Mountain Laurel Designs Superlight Bivy (full net option)

Thank you for these suggestions. I have been looking at them closely and really like the potential for this set up.

[Miner]

My experience has been that finding a suitable site for ground dwelling with a tarp might be harder than for any other shelter options. Unless there is little chance of heavy rain, site selection is key. It might be a bit easier with a bivy (I've never used one) but it doesn't take much to end up with a stream running through your site, especially in areas close to most AT shelters with hard packed soil. Not sure if a bivy would protect you in this case.

Wierd, my experience is the opposite. I only need a spot big enough for my sleepig bag, not the whole shelter. The tarp can be setup to overlap bushes, rocks, logs etc so you don't need the same kind of space a tent or tarp tent needs. Of course I also like sleeping with my feet elevated so I like sleeping on slopes that many people wouldn't even consider so maybe I'm just too different from other people.