A Message for R&R

[TJ aka Teej]

[email protected] writes:
"Unfortunately real "AT" is evidently a language too many who promote themselves visibly as AT members don't really understand."
"the internet Trail Community and its chat medium is a farce to me and
only serves as a drag on the real "Conservancy" AT..."
"the "AT Community") (what a joke)..."
"I'm often amazed by the general lack of obvious awareness by the Trail Community. Frankly, it makes Trail members look dumb."
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R&R,

Since you are a member of the AT Community, and have exhibited an unequaled disgust and loathing for that same community, may I suggest some ways you might modify your opinion?

First, I suggest you meet, in person, with some of the people you type against. Please consider participating in one or more of the following:

The Southern Ruck, which is this weekend: www.soruck.com
The PA Ruck, Jan 28-30 http://www.artofthetrail.com/paruck
The BillVille Winter Warmer, Duncannon PA, March 4-6
TrailFest, in HotSprings, April 22-24 www.trailfest.net
TrailDays, in Damascus May 13-15
National Trail Day is June 4th, www.americanhiking.org
The ATC Biennial in Johnson City, TN. July 2nd, www.southernhighlands2005.org
The ALDHA Gathering, in Hanover, NH, October 7-10 www.aldha.org
The Florida AT Club: Contact Grace Tyner: [email protected]
The Florida Trail Association: www.florida-trail.org

Secondly, I suggest you go hike some on the AT this season. There are many easy sections and shelters near road crossings. Go meet some of today's hikers. Visit Harper's Ferry and talk with some of the great volunteers, and maybe give a ride or two to hikers passing through. Come up to Maine and stay with me at Baxter Park and meet the AT hikers coming through. I'm booking lean-tos in May, August, September, and October. I'll also be hiking in the 100 mile, the Mahoosucs, the northern Long Trail, and the Whites, as well as visiting many service providers in NH and ME, if you need a shuttle anywhere up here just ask.

And thirdly, if interacting with other members of the 'real' and 'Internet' AT Community as suggested above hasn't improved your opinion of us, I suggest you find a grander scale for your complaints. Write an article for the Appalachian Trailways News, or for the ALDHA newsletter, on why you think we are a '"farce" and what we should do to improve ourselves. Write a calm and well thought-out essay about how you feel about us and post it on WhiteBlaze, the at-l, and TrailPlace. Go to an ALDHA Gathering, stand up and be recognized during your AT year's rollcall, and speak up. And while you're there why not give a presentation at the Dartmouth Gathering? It's easy to get on the schedule and book a classroom. You could even schedule a campfire talk at the beach at Storrs Pond if you want.

In conclusion, may I suggest that if you continue to contribute nothing but keyboard enabled anger to the AT Community you're part of the problem you constantly complain about, and not part of the solution you continue to claim we need.

See you on the Trail,

TJ
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Edit, January 15 8;15 AM: In a response below, this post has been called an "attack" by R&R. I'm evidently no wordsmith if that's the way it came out. There's a thin line between confronting a critic and antagonizing him. Sorry if I crossed that line when I tried to defend the AT Community by challenging that Community's harshest critic. ~ TJ

[hikerjohnd]

What is the context of R&R's original quotes?

[minnesotasmith]

That is a nice list of gatherings. Thank you for collecting and posting such useful info in one place.

[Dainon]

TJ, that's actually a very helpful list of meetings that you posted. I wanted to go to the SoRuck this weekend but I'm stuck at work. That said, I think that I'll be able to make quite a few of the others.

Taking it one step further, and assuming that it's not already done and I've missed it, but perhaps that list could be posted on the "Information" section of WB and added to/modified as needed. Anyway, just a thought.

[TJ aka Teej]

What is the context of R&R's original quotes?

For R&R's comments on the Trail Community in their complete context:

http://mailman.backcountry.net/pipermail/at-l/
Search by author to see all at-l posts by [email protected] .

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/search.php?searchid=245404
Link displays all WhiteBlaze posts by R&R.

I do not know if R&R posts in the same manner on TrailPlace.com

[TJ aka Teej]

...perhaps that list could be posted on the "Information" section of WB and added to/modified as needed.

Excellent idea, Dainon! I've opened a new thread for a 2005 Hiker Events Calendar at: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7083
R&R, another Florida event has been added.

[Rocks 'n Roots]

Evidence of the "farce" I pointed out is "TJ" (a man who attacks virtually any and every effort at internet Trail advocacy and conservation) posing as a credible Trail insider giving advice. This is the same person who posts personal slights against Weary of all people. To put things in perspective, TJ accused Weary of scamming people with the Maine Land Trust. He also maligns the AMC while they preserve Trail corridor (one of the only groups successfully doing that) and tries to deny Wingfoot credit when credible AT insiders strongly say otherwise. He also questioned whether I had even ever visited the AT. I was an AT supervisor for 10 years. Yet he never the less invites me to get to know the AT more with his kind references.


TJ tends to go to extreme lengths with veiled personal attacks posing as Trail knowledge. The original quotes above were in reference to cell phones and their leading people into danger by their use as a lifesaving device. TJ never responded to the original topic but instead did his usual and went to lengths to formulate some kind of personal attack. I suggest this is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned "farce". I stand by my words and can back them. TJ's response only reinforces what I was saying...

[Jack Tarlin]

That's all well and good Rocks, but just out of curiousity, of the annual Trail Gatherings that Teej has thoughtfully told us about, how many have you attended recently? This isn't meant to be a slight or attack, so please don't go into your defensive mode. All I'm suggesting is that you might want to consider reaching out to folks in ways other than on anonymous Internet message boards.

And lastly, while your defense of Weary is no doubt well-intended, NOBODY on this forum or any other one is "off-limits" when it comes to discussing their words, writings, actions. This includes Weary, Wingfoot, you, me, or anyone else. If people choose to state public positions or make public statements on Trail matters, then this invites others to comment, congratulate, or criticize.
Nobody is on a pedestal in this regards and nobody occupies a position so lofty that they should be considered untouchable when it comes to comment or criticism. There are no doubt folks in the Trail community (and no, I'm NOT referring to Weary, whose contributions to that Trail I respect a great deal) who do seem to have this opinion of themselves and their opinions, but I assure you, they're mistaken. To take or to seek a public role is to invite public comment; people that get prickly when it comes to personal criticism need to either re-consider the ammount of time they spend in the public eye, or better yet, they should temper some of their public comments, or Internet postings, with more tact, maturity, and plain old common sense.

[rickb]

What a crock.

TJ's post had some good info. But to introduce drama from another board stinks.

I do have to give TJ some credit though. When you can insult someone with the suggestion that he go hiking on "any easy sections and shelters near road crossings" and do so in such a way that one as savy as BJ fails to see the intent (and insult), then you are clever indeed.

Rick B

[Lugnut]

It would seem that R&R just got "Tarlinized".

[Rocks 'n Roots]

To entertain this is to give credit to someone whose specialty is not answering the topic but rather going and compiling some linked and indexed file on a person and his internet history. As I recall, TJ is the same person who dug up personal sexual matters on Warren Doyle and posted them on this board. I think that speaks for itself. Personal sexual matters are usually against most board rules. I'm surprised he was allowed to do that. This attempt here at character assassination is more of the same.


The original context was an AT-L post made by me saying AT internet members tend to avoid any negative examples of cell phones. The case in California of men in shorts hiking deep into a snowy canyon could possibly have been caused by their expectation that the cell phone was a safety device that would allow them to continue. The rendering of this was "Cell Phone Saves Hikers". My point was that it could possibly have lead them into danger as well. This aspect will never be discussed by the average internet member because they are quietly pushing cell phones in order not to be caught looking like a "purist" (as if purist was some kind of dirty word). Though I doubt they would like to be called "impurists"...

I don't know what Jack's point was...

[TJ aka Teej]

TJ accused Weary of scamming people with the Maine Land Trust. He also maligns the AMC while they preserve Trail corridor (one of the only groups successfully doing that) and tries to deny Wingfoot credit when credible AT insiders strongly say otherwise. He also questioned whether I had even ever visited the AT.

"Scamming"?? Nonsense. I do have an idea about what 'preservation' is, and the AMC proposed developement and continued logging isn't 'preservation' in my book. When Wingfoot said he stopped the Putnam Mine with emails and therefore people should send him donations, I supplied contrary facts. R&R then accused the North Carolina Mining Commision and me of conspiring against Wingfoot, and a doctored email was posted on Trailplace. No crediable AT insider ever said Wingfoot stopped the Putnam Mine with emails. Wingfoot has since modified his claim to reflect the facts, and perhaps it's time for you to do the same. For years of your internet negativity, you never provided any background about yourself. A few months ago you began to, and good for you. Your above response only reinforces what's been said about you, R&R. Anyways... what about all those opportunities to meet real people who are members of the Trail Community? Will you consider going to one of them? What about writing about your disapointment with the Trail Community for the ATN? What about making a presentaion on your ideas at the ALDHA Gathering?

[TJ aka Teej]

I do have to give TJ some credit though. When you can insult someone with the suggestion that he go hiking on "any easy sections and shelters near road crossings" and do so in such a way that one as savy as BJ fails to see the intent (and insult), then you are clever indeed.

My actual words were: "Secondly, I suggest you go hike some on the AT this season. There are many easy sections and shelters near road crossings."

Rick, R&R has posted that he doesn't hike anymore because of an old injury to his leg.

[TJ aka Teej]

All I'm suggesting is that you might want to consider reaching out to folks in ways other than on anonymous Internet message boards.

I don't know what Jack's point was...

Perhaps you should try reading his words again, R&R.

[SGT Rock]

Geez, why don't you guys argue in private instead of dragging the rest of us into it.

[TJ aka Teej]

Geez, why don't you guys argue in private instead of dragging the rest of us into it.

Rock, R&R's constant complaints about the AT Internet Community are posted "in public" here and elsewhere on the web. I chose to respond "in public" to those complaints. I also suggested things that might hopefully improve his opinion of us, and some alternative methods for him to vent and reach out to real people. In my opinion a private response to him would do nothing in regard to his low opinion of us, and a public debate on the merits of the AT Community is worthy of our time. However, I respect your opinion, and will not respond further in this thread if that is your wish.

[Jack Lincoln]

At least, not mine! He can lead enlisted men and women during his service but in civilian life his opinion is worth exactly as much as yours and ours.

So quit the ass kissing and post whatever you like. Read the first amendment, if you care to.


Jack

[SGT Rock]

At least, not mine! He can lead enlisted men and women during his service but in civilian life his opinion is worth exactly as much as yours and ours.

So quit the ass kissing and post whatever you like. Read the first amendment, if you care to.


Jack

No I am not a censor, just a site administrator. My point is this is basically the start of a flame war, seems flame wars can turn the newbies off to the site and that is my main concern. And unlike a thread that degenerates that I normally move off to the off-topic forum, this one looks like it was designed just to hack on someone.

Anyway...

If you read through the history of my posts I have always been heavy anti-censorship and very pro self discipline in posts. If someone pisses me off I typically out my thick skin back on and get over it. The only user who I ever deleted a post and banned was a spammer from some handbag company in Asia, other than that, I generally leave things in tact and ask people to do what they should.

So anyway stop antagonizing. Let folks make their own decisions without feeling like the gang on the sidelines is pushing them on.

[Rocks 'n Roots]

It's rather obvious TJ can't answer the original topic - which was the tendency for people to rely on cell phones as a lifesaver and how the recent case in California was probably related to this.


To cut to the chase I suggest ATC stand up for its wilderness purpose and ban cell phones on the AT like Baxter. People who want to use the Trail can then decide for themselves and figure out why instead of persecuting people who stand up for an important AT aspect that gets lost in the AT social club chatter. These airhead cowboys who proudly boast "I'm going to bring my cell phone no matter what others think" can be put in their proper place and get a good AT wildness lesson. The government already bans all sorts of things in federal wildernesses, time it did so on the AT for the same reasons...

[Lugnut]

How do you propose this cell phone ban be enforced? Pack inspections at trailheads! Just wondering.