I need honest feedback PLEASE!

[SGT Rock]

I need some honest feedback here. If I am off on it please tell me.

OK, as ya'll probably know I have been playing with stoves for years. Alcohol stoves have fascinated me and I have been trying to make them as fuel efficient as possible while maintaining consistent performance. The goal of mine is to make a stove with stand that would weight 0.3 ounces or less and boil a pint of water with 0.5 ounces of fuel. This would finally make an alcohol stove that was as weight efficient as a Esbit stove, and the benefit to the hiker would be that it would have an easy to find fuel source that was also very cheap.

Well I think I may have done it. The burner is made from aluminum cans and the stand will be made from sheet Titanium (the current prototypes use aluminum sheet). Even though titanium is a resilient metal, care would still need to be taken with the stove to ensure its serviceability on the trail. With proper use and care, the Ion stove should last for as long as you do. No moving parts and nothing to break. And, the stand could double as an Esbit stove if you wanted it to do so.

ION Stove – Alcohol fuel stove.
Weight: 0.3 ounces (10 grams)
Height: 1.5” (3.81 cm) tall with stand Diameter: 3” 7.62 cm) with stand
Parts: Burner, Stand Bottom, and Stand Top.
Performance: To boil one pint of water @ 212.4° F (100° C) for at least 60 seconds…
Air Temperature:.................Fuel required:.....................Time to Boil:
60° F (16° C) or above…….0.41 fluid ounces (12ml)….............…~6:30
30° F to 59° F……………….…0.51 fluid ounces (15ml)…….............~8:30
Below 30°F…………………….…0.61 fluid ounces (18ml)……............~10:00
**Note: these statistics assume you are using a windscreen and reflector**

Oh, and the patent process is just getting started, maybe…

So looking at just retail part suppliers, I can build the stoves in my spare time with the right tools and probably crank out 100 or so in a weekend, I could make them at the house and probably could sell them at about $18 plus shipping. The initial outlay to me in just supplies would be about $500 to get the parts, most of that is for titanium.

This stove is not designed for groups or heavy cooking, its intended use is for a solo ultralight hiker that only needs to boil water and do some simple cooking. Of course the Ion is so light, than a group of hikers could each carry their own stove…

But before I go and spend $300+ on a patent and order $300+ in titanium to make them, I want to make sure I am not throwing money away here. How big a market is there out there? Remember this is a solo stove for boiling water and light cooking, this isn’t your MSR Whisperlight.

1. Not interested in something like this, I need more from a stove.

2. I am interested somewhat, but would want to see one first.

3. I am very interested but still not completely sure.

4. I want one now, I already wanted one yesterday.

5. Completely undecided.

6. Other, please comment…

[bitpusher]

I voted other, not because it's a bad idea, but because I'm not a rabid ultralighter. I don't know what the weight savings is over the alcohol stoves that I've made myself, but the cost involved is more than I want to pay just to shave off less than an ounce per boil. But I imagine there are some people who would be interested.

[SGT Rock]

Thanks Bitpusher, that is the sort of feedback I need.Be brutal ya'll.

BTW, if I included in the advertisement comparison charts that included the Esbit wing stove, the Jetboil, The Trangia Westwind, and a homemade can stove, would that be a factor? Imagine that I could show that over a week hiking you could carry an average of 2 ounces less than if you had a homemade pepsi can stove (that number off the top of my head BTW, not a real comparison) would that help you to decide?

[ToeJam]

Sounds like an interesting concept, but there are always two of us, and sometimes, although not alot, we do more than just boil water.

So it would not be for me personally, but I think it could well fill the niche for those solo UL's...

PS comparisons are always good to see in black and white I think - but wow 2 ounces over a course of a week? I knew I was far and always will be far form an ultra-lighter but thats just insane (not in a bad way but a different way lol!)<-- whoops maybe you just edited that as I replied that the 2 oz was a real number lol! Anyhoo yes I think a side by side comparison wold help alot of ppl SEE the difference!

[rpettit]

I appreciate the info available on your website. I used the soda can stove design, I'm with the previous replies. Not worth the weight reduction but I'm not an ultralighter.

[The Will]

I'm interested. I've been very tentative on my switch from white gas to alcohol based on challenges I've had achieving what I perceive would be maximum efficiency from from alcohol stove creations. And if your evolutionary process is that many more steps ahead of mine than I would certainly not consider $18 an unreasonable investment.

[steve hiker]

I'm definitely interested in making one. I would have made one already but I found it difficult to follow the drawings on your website. I believe this stove uses insulation, right?

If I had a good set of instructions I'd make one but wouldn't buy one, as I already have a couple of good pepsi can stoves.

A comparison chart to pepsi and esbit stoves would help. My pepsi stove boils water faster than the ion stove in your chart. At least, the one I've named Rip N Run that has steel wool between the inner and outer wall. Draws the alcohol up and gets to it fast!

But if I wasn't inclined to make my own stoves, the Ion would be my first choice. Smart move to patent it.

[Lugnut]

Not sure you could even patent your stove. Guess you could register a name, like esbit does, but anyone can make a solid tab fuel stove nevertheless. Hope I'm wrong because as much work as I've seen you put into your stove experiments you deserve any reward you can get. I use a home built, esbit stove on the rare occasions, but I'd buy one of your to compare. I might switch.

[SGT Rock]

The newest one doesn't use insulation. Also, this isn't going to be a fast stove, the goal has been weight efficiency. It isn't slow either, at least not as slow as some of my older prototypes that could take 15 minutes to boil.

[wacocelt]

I'm interested Top! I've been using alcohol burning soda stoves since 2000 and am always happy to see lighter more efficient alternatives.

[Grimace]

If your initial investment is $600 then you have to sell 34 stoves at $18 to break even. That seems doable. I don't think it is going to make you rich though. An extra $2 is no big deal so I guess you only need to sell 31 at $20 a pop. I douby you'd lose money, but is it worth the time?

How about selling detailed directions instead of the stove itself. Check with a lawyer, but you may be able to put some legal jargon in there about using it for personal profit. Kind of like buying an album.

Personally, I'd pay for directions and make one if you could prove it to me before hand. Hell, what's $5 for directions.

[The Solemates]

Rock:

This is quite a coincidence because I just made the current design of your Ion stove that you have on your website this past week. I know that may be an older design, but its all I have to compare to, and you asked, so here ya go...

I made the stove EXACTLY as you laid out in your instructions. I also had Roy's instructions on a windscreen handy just in case. The stove I made, including 2 Wal-Mart brand ginger ale can bottoms, 2 1.75" non-skid jumbo paper clips, 1 piece of 6 x 1/2" insulation, 1 hardware cloth wire support (which I made a little bit wider and placed it just on the outside of the stove, rather than the inside in your design. this accomodated my 1400mL pot better), 1 Al reflective base, and 1 Al 3 x 22" windscreen, weighed in at 1.4 ounces. I then took it outside to test. Environmental conditions were 40 degrees F (exactly) and 0-10mph winds intermittently. I placed exactly 2 cups in my titanium pot, covered it with the lid and started the stove. I timed it with a stopwatch and it took over 12:00 to boil, and even then it was not a rolling boil. I was a little disappointed, as from your website I was expecting to see a boil time in the range of 5-8 minutes. Additionally, with the somewhat unstable pot support, I was afraid that my pot was going to topple over during some of the 10mph gusts. I imagine that in real on-trail conditions when even "calm" winds can be 20-30mph, it would topple.

In conclusion, I was not that impressed with Ion stove, but with further design changes and "flawless" construction by a "professional" maybe it will be better. Furthermore, I tend to hike year-round, in temperatures from below 0F to 100F. After much testing, I still am not convinced that an alcohol stove would work very well (if at all) in cold conditions. However, I would like to try again in the summer when the time comes. But for now I will stick with my Simmerlite. (Although I would like to try the JetBoil as well, but cant see the necessity of spending $80 when I already have a stove that works fine).

Its supposed to rain all weekend, so if it does Im going to give the tuna can stove a try and compare it.

Just my thoughts...

[chris]

While the specs look great, alot of people simply make their own stoves, even if they are not the most efficient in the world. My stupid, cut-off beer can works fine, even if it is less efficient than the Ion. I can also replace it if I happen to step on it: Just buy some beer.

However, there are, I suspect, a lot of people who would want to buy such a stove. I read over your website a lot, and found it very useful, when trying to build my first stove.

So, while I wouldn't buy one, I think others would, particularly if you made visits to various hiker Gatherings, and managed to get the stoves into some of the early outfitters, like Neels Gap, Hot Springs, Damascus. And, possibly in some of the hostels, like Standing Bear, those in Erwin, and Kincora.

[Spirit Walker]

No, I wouldn't buy one for two reasons - I cook for two, usually Liptons, and the boil times are too long. I like the fuel savings, as I think the stove we use now uses too much fuel per meal, but 10 minutes to boil a pint of water is too long.

[PKH]

Well it looks like a fine little stove. But I already have a superb alcohol burner, made by Brasslite. I got it after reading an excellent review posted by a moderately famous backpacker, who described the stove as "a work of functional art". Recognize the quote Sarge?

Seriously - at this point for me the major weight loss battles have been won, and shaving another two ounces off is not vital.

cheers,

PKH

[dje97001]

I am all for the capitalist, entrepreneurial, innovative endeavors... I once bought a gallon jug of water for over $2 because I really liked the design of the bottle (it had a purplish-translucent hue that made the water look really refreshing). That said, I'm way too much of a novice to make my own coke-can stove (or at least I think I am) and ultimately, you would need a serious chart in the ad (like you suggested) to convince me to spend $18 on a stove. Showing: SRPs of the ION and competitors (in similar price ranges when available--including the standard pepsi can stove), Fuel efficiency (with a fuel-calculator like you find on most car sites trying to sell hybrids [i.e. this is what a gallon of fuel costs, this is how many miles to the gallon you can get, this is your current car, this is the ion, this is how much money and weight (add it up by the mile or something) you could save over 10 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles, 500 miles, 2174 miles...]).

Also, the marketing and selling of products by yourself can be quite an undertaking--would someone like antigravity gear (who already has that infrastructure in place for taking orders and advertising--you could of course choose to sell it on your website too, but you probably need a bigger base than each website individually) be interested in selling them (for a slight commission)? Those people might have a good idea on how much they could sell them for...?

Lastly--and I don't know if any of this has been even slightly useful so far, but one more thought--people generally look at fuel use/weight efficiency, and overall cost and functionality, but like the purple bottle of water, the appearance of the stove is terribly important to many. Offer custom painting (like flames on the sides!!), the more "homemade look" for those who either don't care about paint/style or are trying to make someone believe that they actually made it themselves?!, camouflage (for L.Wolf or yourself), maybe names of universities, states, towns, trail names? People will agree to slightly higher prices if they think that something has been custom made for them (give them some options).

Just a couple of thoughts. I really like the paint job idea though.

[SGT Rock]

I made the stove EXACTLY as you laid out in your instructions. I also had Roy's instructions on a windscreen handy just in case. The stove I made, including 2 Wal-Mart brand ginger ale can bottoms, 2 1.75" non-skid jumbo paper clips, 1 piece of 6 x 1/2" insulation, 1 hardware cloth wire support (which I made a little bit wider and placed it just on the outside of the stove, rather than the inside in your design. this accomodated my 1400mL pot better), 1 Al reflective base, and 1 Al 3 x 22" windscreen, weighed in at 1.4 ounces.

Those older instructions were for my beta 1 model. I did say somewhere in that article (not the instructions) that the performance was not that consistant and it ended up that it needed more stable conditions than trail conditions allowed. It also did not work well with narrow bottom pots, it really needed a wide bottom and/or curved sides. The pot support on that one was unstable especially with tall pots. The newer version I posted in the forum of my website is a little more stable, but not that great. The new idea that I have come up with and isn't posted on the site is the construction of the Ti pot support. I have made one from sheet aluminum and it worked, today I am oredering the Ti and I am going to cut a model as soon as it arrives. BTW, my plan was to include a DIY kit with instructions to save people the hassle of getting the material, that should come in at about $7 plus shipping.

The stove weight sounds a bit high, but that could mostly be windscreen.

I then took it outside to test. Environmental conditions were 40 degrees F (exactly) and 0-10mph winds intermittently. I placed exactly 2 cups in my titanium pot, covered it with the lid and started the stove. I timed it with a stopwatch and it took over 12:00 to boil, and even then it was not a rolling boil. I was a little disappointed, as from your website I was expecting to see a boil time in the range of 5-8 minutes.

Yes, that would figure. With that older design it would take about 24ml of alcohol to get a boil, and I don't remember if the stove holds that much. The newer design as tested would take about 15ml of fuel to do that and would do itin about 8:30.

Additionally, with the somewhat unstable pot support, I was afraid that my pot was going to topple over during some of the 10mph gusts. I imagine that in real on-trail conditions when even "calm" winds can be 20-30mph, it would topple.

I wouldn't want to use it in those conditions either.

Look at this: http://hikinghq.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1013. The pot stand in this is still a little bit less stable than I wanted, but near the bottom of the thread is a hint of what the new pot support will look like. I have been playing withthe design and come up with a little bit more stable platform. I plan to get some sheet steel today and make a final test version with the strength of steel to test overall stability and how hard the Ti may be to cut using current tools.

In conclusion, I was not that impressed with Ion stove, but with further design changes and "flawless" construction by a "professional" maybe it will be better. Furthermore, I tend to hike year-round, in temperatures from below 0F to 100F. After much testing, I still am not convinced that an alcohol stove would work very well (if at all) in cold conditions. However, I would like to try again in the summer when the time comes. But for now I will stick with my Simmerlite. (Although I would like to try the JetBoil as well, but cant see the necessity of spending $80 when I already have a stove that works fine).

I have found that to be the case, sometimes in the translation of trying to put instructions on the web, the idea of "loosely packed" insulation means something different, or the mating technique of the two cans that someone might use can destroy seals in a critical spot. Lord knows I have tossed a lot of stoves during production that someone else may not have because the flaw that is obvious to me isn't to them. My goal now is to standardize some tooling with templates here to streamline production and get rid of those flaws.

Also, my instructions will include a temperature guide. An alcohol stove does have different fuel requirements based on water tempand air temp. It is invisible to the canister stove user because they just shut the stove off when they are done and might not notice the 10%-20% increase in fuel usage like an alcohol stove user would,

Its supposed to rain all weekend, so if it does Im going to give the tuna can stove a try and compare it.

Just my thoughts...

Thanks for your thoughts. The better I understand the user, the better decison I will make. As a stove nut this to me is the Unobtanium of stoves, but to others it might so unimportant that they could care less.

[SGT Rock]

I am all for the capitalist, entrepreneurial, innovative endeavors... I once bought a gallon jug of water for over $2 because I really liked the design of the bottle (it had a purplish-translucent hue that made the water look really refreshing). That said, I'm way too much of a novice to make my own coke-can stove (or at least I think I am) and ultimately, you would need a serious chart in the ad (like you suggested) to convince me to spend $18 on a stove. Showing: SRPs of the ION and competitors (in similar price ranges when available--including the standard pepsi can stove), Fuel efficiency (with a fuel-calculator like you find on most car sites trying to sell hybrids [i.e. this is what a gallon of fuel costs, this is how many miles to the gallon you can get, this is your current car, this is the ion, this is how much money and weight (add it up by the mile or something) you could save over 10 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles, 500 miles, 2174 miles...]).

I looked at other alcohol stoves on the market and E-Bay, I think $18 for a Ti pot stand and aluminum stove isn't too bad a price. People at one time were paying me similar prices for Cat stoves.

[quote}
Also, the marketing and selling of products by yourself can be quite an undertaking--would someone like antigravity gear (who already has that infrastructure in place for taking orders and advertising--you could of course choose to sell it on your website too, but you probably need a bigger base than each website individually) be interested in selling them (for a slight commission)? Those people might have a good idea on how much they could sell them for...?[/quote]

I had thought of that. My plan was to offer a commission to a couple of local sellers and then hit some hiker gatherings with a supply of them.

Lastly--and I don't know if any of this has been even slightly useful so far, but one more thought--people generally look at fuel use/weight efficiency, and overall cost and functionality, but like the purple bottle of water, the appearance of the stove is terribly important to many. Offer custom painting (like flames on the sides!!), the more "homemade look" for those who either don't care about paint/style or are trying to make someone believe that they actually made it themselves?!, camouflage (for L.Wolf or yourself), maybe names of universities, states, towns, trail names? People will agree to slightly higher prices if they think that something has been custom made for them (give them some options).

Just a couple of thoughts. I really like the paint job idea though.

My wife recommended the same thing to me last night. I have been looking at ordering custom blank cans from a supplier and getting just that. But for now, the plan is to sand the original paint off so you get a silver and gray stove.

[food]

Top,

Each of my alcohol stoves has a problem.

Trangia - too heavy.
Brasslite - unstable.
antigravitygear - requires priming.

$20 to someone that has contributed as much as you have to the hiking comunity is no big deal.

[rickb]

Not sure why, but I feel an illogical need for a screw on top.

Even if it made perfect sense to switch on the basis of weight and performance, honestly I would only do so if I found an alternative that had Maglite/Leatherman construction quality, and most likely a screw on cap.

If you go into production, do you think you might have any product liability issues? I am probably just paranoid about such things...