Trail police say no water

[birchy]

Attention All Hikers on the A.T.

I would like to inform the hiking community that the TRAIL POLICE from the P.A.T.C. have informed me that I cannot leave jugs of ICE WATER at trailheads on hot summer days. According to Chris Firme (PATC) this is considered to be littering and he removed the jug of ICE water but left the chair and the shirt that was covering it. If any true outdoorsman sees this as offensive and a gross abuse of some perceived power that some members of the trail patrol think they have. I ask all to e-mail the PATC a voice our opinion. By the way there will no longer be any cold water or drinks provided by me at any place on the A.T. because I do not want to go to PRISON,,,,

[grayfox]

No good deed goes unpunished....

[Majortrauma]

There HAS to be more to this. I do believe birchy but for a PATC memver to do this there has to be something else going on unless he was suffering from heat stroke or is disabled in some other way.
Screw 'em. They have to catch you first Birchy AND prove it was you.

[moldy]

This is exactly why we should feel free to ignore anything the PATC has to say about anything.

[emerald]

Someone needs to decide what's acceptable and if everyone made these decisions on their own there would likely be no agreement or consistency on anything. Whining about how trail clubs manage the trail on Whiteblaze and posting in a manner that encourages people to do as they please without regarding the wishes of trail managers is unlikely to result in any improvement.

Many today seem to think eyeryone ought to be able to do as they wish and with enough tolerance for the wishes of others it should somehow be possible. It's not possible on the Appalachian Trail or anywhere else either.

[jrwiesz]

Trash or magic?

I've seen that somewhere around here before.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...+bible+shelter

The Heat is on!

[birchy]

There is nothing more to it. I decided that since it was hot and it was about 7 miles between water sources I would set a jug of ice water at the Shippensburg Rd trail head. I actually sat there for a while with it but had to run back to my house. When I returned to get the jug it was gone and a note told me that I was littering. Ironically they did not take the chair and the towel that I had placed over the jug to keep it cold. The note said that there was plenty of water at the shelters.... yeah, but it does not have ice in it..... lol

[birchy]

The PATC trail patrol are not police, they have no police powers, and in fact it was THEFT to take my jug of water that I paid for.

[jrwiesz]

Now that, may be a slippery slope.

[nufsaid]

Didn't we just experience a week ago a week of rain almost every day?

Someone needs to decide what's acceptable and if everyone made these decisions on their own there would likely be no agreement or consistency on anything. Whining about how trail clubs manage the trail on Whiteblaze and posting in a manner that encourages people to do as they please disregarding of the wishes of trail managers is unlikely to result in any improvement.

Many today seem to think eyeryone ought to be able to do as they wish and with enough tolerance for the wishes of others it should somehow be possible. It's not possible on the Appalachian Trail or anywhere else either.

Emerald, I agree. We should all bow to our dear leader. Any divergence should be squashed post haste.

[emerald]

Trash or magic?

No, sorry, it's not the great debate all over again. It's a simple question of PATC policy and they don't require input from Whiteblaze.

[Tinker]

The PATC trail patrol are not police, they have no police powers, and in fact it was THEFT to take my jug of water that I paid for.

Still have the PATC note and the receipt for the water? Tell your story to the local LEO's and see if you might have a case.

[Chomp09]

Thank you for the attempt at a good deed and I mean no offense by this (because there have been times when passing a jug of water at a trail head has been a life saver) but really, seven miles? I'm pretty sure hikers can make due without the additional water source. In my eyes, the down side of people leaving trail magic unsupervised is the potential for trash that doesn't get picked up when the food/water/magic is gone.

[Lyle]

As a trail maintainer my self (not the AT), I can sympathize with the maintainers. As a hiker who often finds myself out on very hot, sweaty days, I can also appreciate the gesture of nice COLD water being available where it's not expected.

Seems this is a pretty simple problem. When the maintainer saw the stash, was the water still cold, was the ice still present? Then it hadn't been there all that long and could still easily be classified as a welcome site.

On the other hand, if the containers were empty or tepid, and the "protective covers" were in disarray, then it was obviously trash and should/would be removed.

I'm sure it was near a road crossing, so, as the maintainer, if you leave it, just make a mental note of it and check on it the next time you or someone are in the area.

Problem solved and some hikers get a nice treat, the one doing the kind act gets a chance to follow through, and no harm done.

[birchy]

Well if you lived within 500 feet of the A.T. for half you life I bet you would have picked up every piece of trash like I do. The A.T. is very dear to my heart, and so are the people that use it. If you do not like trail magic it is probably because you never received any. I can see the trail head from my house, CAN YOU

[birchy]

I know I may sound mad, but I,m more concerned about the usurpation of some perceived authority. A trail patrol member is there to educate, not police, where are the HANDCUFFS

[mweinstone]

i find most people to be godless devil worshipers. so who does what on any given day is less conserning to me than say, where will i get food. im presently shaky and dieing of lack of everything. so your arguing over a bottle of magic and its accosiated implications as they affect you, mean you have alot of food on your not so shakey hands to waste time talkin crap. lets see one of you take the hard knocks of trail cops beating your water up with a small amount of grace yes? and then move on to how your not all going to be in my sorry ass position soon. that would be constructive. you see my dears. your time is up for this sort of thing. matthewski is the cannary in the coal mine and im keelin over here. might wanna check in on africa or burmma and see how they feel about your whole take on life. when the first groups of early humans organized enough to allow thinkers and musicians and art, it wasnt done so we could waste all that effort. make use of your presious lives. they dry and fly away so soon. i love you all and hope the best for you. goodby.

[Lyle]

I know I may sound mad, but I,m more concerned about the usurpation of some perceived authority. A trail patrol member is there to educate, not police, where are the HANDCUFFS

Well, as a maintainer, I can attest. If a certain amount of "Policing" isn't done by the maintainers, then NONE will be done. Trash accumulation is a big problem. I have personally had to remove piles of beer/pop cans, bottles, roofing shingles, etc. In fact, just last week I paid to dispose of an air conditioner that I dragged off of the North Country Trail a while back.

If I understand it right, the AT is very lucky, they have exactly ONE ranger assigned to policing it's length. Most trails don't have any. Sometimes some positions of "authority" have to just be assumed if anything is to be done.

That said, as I indicated in my previous post, a little common sense and accommodation can go a long way toward reducing ruffled feathers on both sides.

Thanks for the thought on leaving the water. Maybe it would help if the next time (if you decide to try again) leave a note clearly stating when you will be back to remove and "police the area" yourself. Might make the maintainer feel a bit better about leaving it there. Just a thought.

[emerald]

When PATC's trail patrol saw the cache, was the water still cold and ice still present? If so, it hadn't been there all that long and could easily be classified as a welcome sight [by hikers].

On the other hand, if the containers were empty or tepid, and the "protective covers" were in disarray, then it was obviously trash and should/would be removed.

Who is to say it would have remained cold long enough for a hiker to benefit and why should that be a consideration when deciding whether to remove it or not? Even had it not yet reached ambient temperature, it would have met your requirement for removal within a few hours.

Just because so-called trail magic is unexpected and may be appreciated by hikers doesn't mean it ought to be permitted. Hikers should expect and plan to obtain drinking water from natural and permanent, developed sources on the Appalachian Trail, except in towns.

If hikers want the kinds of services available in towns, they should go there to partake of them.

I can see the trail head from my house, CAN YOU? If you lived within 500 feet of the A.T. for half your life, I bet you would have picked up every piece of trash like I do. The A.T. is very dear to my heart, and so are the people that use it.

How is this quote relevant to a discussion about water caches and why should living near the AT or picking up trash at trailheads result in PATC or any other trail club making exceptions to its policies for such individuals?

If you do not like trail magic it is probably because you never received any.

According to ATC's definition of trail magic, all hikers are the recipients of trail magic. My postion has more to do with so-called trail angels refusing to work with trail clubs and feeling they are entitled to make up their own rules and ought to be accorded some sort of special status or treatment.

[WingedMonkey]

Seems to me you are a self appointed trail maintainer. Is there a reason you can't work well with others? Who do you think should decide what "your" section of trail needs or doesn't need?
Lately you have referred to a new hostel as "my hostel". I'm not sure how you came by that title either.
There is no such thing as "trail police". You need to be more precise about what the person realy was, even Ridge Runners have no enforcement capabilities.
So I would suggest, now that you have also appointed yourself "trail angel" that you work with the local club to see how they can best use your services.
Keep putting the water jugs out, either you will wear them out of they will wear you out. Or maybe you just need a place to sit and meet people.