Trail police say no water

[emerald]

The important general policy discussion on this topic occurred long ago and ATC wrote a position paper to guide those who insist upon providing so-called trail magic. Unfortunately, the redesign of their website has resulted in much useful information becoming unavailable.

I would think common sense would lead one to inquire with local trail maintaining clubs about their related policies. The more local clubs do to clarify their expectations and the more consistent they are in implimenting them, the fewer misunderstandings are apt to result.

Even people who may claim to be affiliated with PATC surely realize they can't have it both ways, not even when trolling online.

[weary]

Attention All Hikers on the A.T.

I would like to inform the hiking community that the TRAIL POLICE from the P.A.T.C. have informed me that I cannot leave jugs of ICE WATER at trailheads on hot summer days. According to Chris Firme (PATC) this is considered to be littering and he removed the jug of ICE water but left the chair and the shirt that was covering it. If any true outdoorsman sees this as offensive and a gross abuse of some perceived power that some members of the trail patrol think they have. I ask all to e-mail the PATC a voice our opinion. By the way there will no longer be any cold water or drinks provided by me at any place on the A.T. because I do not want to go to PRISON,,,,

Okay. For starters, you are in no danger of going to prison. Some trail maintainer simply informed you of a non-enforcible rule that has been in place for decades, i.e. stuff left unattended on the trail is litter.

I was told this when I took over as a trail maintainer 4 + decades ago. I've been reminded of this again and again ever since. Chris Firme I'm sure wanted to remove all the litter you had left. Probably there was only so much he could carry out on one trip.

This is a long narrow trail, stretching 2,000 + miles. People leave all kinds of stuff along this trail. The thousands of volunteer maintainers can't be charged with deciding which is valuable, and which isn't. Hikers rather are charged with making those decisions and carrying in everything they are likely to need, and carrying out everything they don't need.

No other policy makes sense. Ice water certainly is appreciated by some hikers. Some hiker or other may appreciate everything found along the trail. But the fact is 99 percent of stuff that people leave "to be helpful" ends up having to be carried out by maintainers as garbage.

Yes, occasionally, a warm jacket left behind on a hot summer day, is valuable, to someone on a fall trip. But more likely the jacket will end up as a nest for shelter mice, which eventually will be carried out by a maintainer.

Every maintainer of sections easilly reached by roads and well-meaning trail magic purveyors deal with this again and again.

Trail magic which fails to appreciate these basic facts, are providing magic, but not the good kind. Their magic is best described as PITAS. (pain in the anal sections)

[restless]

Reading thru this thread, it seems that there is an attitude developing within the trail community by some of it's members. That attitude is one that holds in total disregard what is best for the trail as a whole and only sees as acceptable what benefits "me". Trail magic, while appreciated when it occurs, more often results in litter left on the trail, unless the provider is around for the whole event. Birchy, while you may take offense to what the PATC overseer did by removing your "magic", it was plain and simple, abandoned trash left in the woods to be carried away by animals or carried out by some person. I find it somewhat surprising that you took offense at this. Your avatar shows you as being a trail maintainer and I'm sure you know as I do, the problem with trash, not just along the roadsides, but also in the backcountry. You could have taken the water with you, as well as the chair and towel, and simply brought it back with you when you returned. In that manner, your trail magic would have been able to continue unhindered. I also find your attitude towards PATC, or any other trail maintaining organization bothersome. I assume that as a trail maintainer, you are involved with the PATC. If not, I would encourage you to become involved, if nothing else as a volunteer, especially if they have responsibility for the section of trail you claim to be maintaining. It seems that it is becoming a hobby on this site to bash various clubs and at times even ATC or the NPS. The truth is, is that behind each one of these organisations is a solid volunteer base that tirelessly put in many hours each year to keep the trail in great shape. And Birchy, I would say that neither you, nor anyone else here on WB, should do anything to undermine the efforts of these volunteers. If we can't appreciate the efforts put forth by these volunteers, whether we agree with their actions or not, perhaps then we should find another trail....or another hobby. ' Nuf said.

[Cookerhiker]

This is exactly why we should feel free to ignore anything the PATC has to say about anything.

The PATC does more for the Trail than you could even dream of in 100 years.

[k.reynolds70]

Cookerhiker is right!

PATC has done wonderful things for not just the trail, but people's lives.

I wonder if Moldy has ever had some great times at a PATC cabin..?

[Bucketfoot]

Amen to what cookerhiker said. many hike the trail but how many do the work to make sure the trail continues to even exist. Thank you to every trail maintaining organization!

[Many Walks]

We always carry plenty of water, but when we went through PA it was so dry several water sources were no longer running. If we hadn't come upon some of these water caches we would have been in a real hurt. The extremely nice local folks would leave water jugs at the trail head and there was absolutely no other trash around there, which indicated these good people came back to refill the jugs and kept the area clean. One man and his daughter even hiked miles to a shelter each night with water so hikers would have some. We very much appreciated all of this and wished we knew who to thank at the time.


Birchy, if we got water you left, we give you a huge THANK YOU for watching out for hikers.


In general, rules based on common sense can be helpful, but rules intended to control every situation based on one narrow perspective will always miss the mark in some way. I'm against leaving anything that can become trash in the woods, shelters or privies. I see no issue with someone providing water for thirsty hikers at a trailhead, especially when they clean up trash. This is a really nice gesture that should be appreciated and not smacked down by a blanket policy.


If I was the PATC member that came upon Birchy's setup I believe I would have waited around awhile to talk about what was going on. If that didn't work I would have left everything with my phone number so we could discuss it. In the end, no harm no foul and I believe PATC might even see value in someone watching over the trailhead. Yes, Trail Maintainers and volunteers do a tremendous amount of work and do a lot of good for the trail, which should be appreciated. I also believe there are a lot of other good folks who do a lot to support the trail and provide good will to both the AT and the hiking community. These folks do the good deeds anonymously and are never recognized for their effort, but should be equally appreciated.

[Skyline]

Birchy, instead of slamming PATC and one of its volunteers on a public website, why don't you become a PATC volunteer yourself? Your location so close to the AT makes you a perfect candidate. Then you will be able to see the other side. You'll meet some of the people you are ranting against, and you may even become friends.

But most of all, you will learn how you can best help the Trail and the hikers who use it. You may even find a better way to supply hikers with ice water.

It's called a win/win.

[Wolf - 23000]

Lyle,

First let me say thank you for your hard work as a trail maintainer. It is a thankless job especially not working on the AT.


I can see your point about trail litter because it is extremely annoying for an official or non-official maintainer to have to take out someone else trash. More than just the act of carrying out the weight, it is aggravating to know that you are doing extra work because someone was too lazy to carry out their own trash.


With that said, birchy represent what many trail angle have done over the years - lending a helping hand to many long distance hikers. In my years on the trail as both a hikers and unofficial as a part time trail helper for a couple of years, all trail helpers that I know of will collect trash around the area. It is like a small area that becomes adopted.



Years ago the ATC had some policy that really needed to be changed. Thankfully some pressure was put on them to update their policy for the better. Having enough water on a hot day can become a safety issue. It sucks being on a hot day and out of water. It also shows that there really are good people left in the world that would do something to help others out of the goodness of heart. Maybe the PATC needs some pressure put on them as well.

Wolf

[birchy]

WOW... I'm surprised at the varying opinions which this thread has produced... God bless AMERICA. For all those that actually got the point..THANK YOU. For all those who only saw this for what they wanted, well you know. First! The PATC does do an excellent job, however, some members believe that they have a right to make policy. The good lord teaches us to be thoughtful and kind to others, and that is the primary policy in life. I walk this trail everyday, I live within eyesight of this trail everyday, I interact with hikers everyday. That my dear friends has been one of the most fulfilling aspects of my backwoods life. Trust in this, my trail magic, and my love for this trail will not change over one incident. However, what is changing is my attitude about the people who claim to protect this trail. When a trail patrol member from another state comes 75 miles for 1 day out a month, and tries to change or interfere with the way thinks have been here on this mountain for decades, then YES... I do take some offense, but he had just as much right to take the water jugs as I did in leaving them. I promise you this, I will be here doing what I do long after many of my critics are gone.... GOD BLESS....and HAPPY TRAILS

[d.o.c]

Well if you lived within 500 feet of the A.T. for half you life I bet you would have picked up every piece of trash like I do. The A.T. is very dear to my heart, and so are the people that use it. If you do not like trail magic it is probably because you never received any. I can see the trail head from my house, CAN YOU

yes and i agree i think this fancy shirtd PATC dude was haven him self a lil bit of a power trip to me...... or he filld his water bottles up and was justifing taking all the water for himself....... i leave stuff at trail heads and clean up after the fact to..... i think the PATC was wrong here..

[Migrating Bird]

I agree totally with Wolf's statement above.

Additionally, if the well intentioned trail maintainer saw the jug of water as trash then whatever he left his phone number on is also trash and should be considered littering un-less written in the dirt or with sticks & rocks? Strikes me as a power trip, he is stupid or just plain mean. Why leave the chair & towel? Remove all or none. Does this mean "anything" left un-attended, regardless of how long is to be considered trash and is subject to removal? With the weather this weekend and all the "non-prepared" hikers out on the trail, this water could have been a real life saver. It is my understanding that the AT was not established for the sole use by experienced, long distance hikers with a higher tendency to manage their water needs.

If the OP has been doing this for many years and the maintainer knew his section then the maintainer should have had the knowledge that this was not litter. Taking the water is more a kin to stealing IMO.

[Cookerhiker]

plus there's plenty of water and road crossings on the AT. folks just don't carry much any more cuz it weighs too much. i've never counted on jugs and coolers at roads. i took responsibility for myself

Excellent point Wolf. If someone can't make it 7 miles between water sources because they choose to bring only one small bottle to save weight, let them live with the consequences.

[d.o.c]

the PATC guy really should have moniterd it if it was there for a while then get it outherwise he was just bein kind of rude.. there is currently some magic near boblets gap if its not gone soon and is empty i will get it if its not aready been snagd but i doubt that jug was empty when the guy took it and left the note.. and since their is a chair there and towel what made the PATC dude think it wouldnt be cleand up?

[sarman]

SOME ridgerunners have a better than thou attitude. It CAN come with the territory. I was one 32 years ago on the Glenwood Ranger District. I just spent the weekend doing trail magic in SNP's Loft Mtn campground. Put signs up on the AT. When I went out to take them down Sunday night, someone had removed one from the concrete AT marker. Yes, I know I was not supposed to put it there.

Was a great weekend. At least two dozen hikers and three dozen meals. Nine actually spent a night at our camp.

[sarman]

Oh yeah, I'm a life member of PATC. Keep doing trial magic, birchy.

[restless]

SOME ridgerunners have a better than thou attitude. It CAN come with the territory. I was one 32 years ago on the Glenwood Ranger District. I just spent the weekend doing trail magic in SNP's Loft Mtn campground. Put signs up on the AT. When I went out to take them down Sunday night, someone had removed one from the concrete AT marker. Yes, I know I was not supposed to put it there.

Was a great weekend. At least two dozen hikers and three dozen meals. Nine actually spent a night at our camp.

And the ridgerunners, caretakers, trail overseers,__________, are the ones who are wrong for removing things that aren't supposed to be there in the first place? Quitcherwhining. If something is placed or left where it shouldn't be to begin with, there should be no expectation for it to be left there. Ever heard of "Leave No Trace"? Trail magic is not exempt.

[sarman]

Oh, and I just finished Damascus to Waynesboro three weeks ago. Trail Magic was my favorite experience by far. Nothing more than fried chicken, sodas, chips, and snacks.

[sarman]

was not whining. was only stating a fact with no attitude. and will keep doing responsible trail magic. sorry if you don't like.

[sarman]

And the ridgerunners, caretakers, trail overseers,__________, are the ones who are wrong for removing things that aren't supposed to be there in the first place? Quitcherwhining. If something is placed or left where it shouldn't be to begin with, there should be no expectation for it to be left there. Ever heard of "Leave No Trace"? Trail magic is not exempt.

I rest my case