P.O.E.'s warranty is a P.O.S.

[cynhikr]

Upon reading the favorable thread http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...ity-in-Service on how Cascade Designs does business I thought it may be the time to illustrate how one of the OTHER outdoor products businesses out there treats their customers........


A few years ago I purchased a POE 'X-Lite Thermo' pad for my gf as a gift.

Recently, after calling and getting an RMA from Ryan @ POE, she returned (on her dime) this 'lifetime warranted' $65 POE insulated, rectangular, 72x20, "x-lite thermo" pad to POE because the insulation was delaminating/clumping badly within the pad, clearly a manufacturing defect. When sold, this was POE's top-of-the-line pad.
She took their word for it that they would send her a 'like replacement' (which is what she was told by Ryan of POE on the phone). well.....POE shipped as a replacement a $22.00 "Pack M" pad. It is mummy pad and very, let's say, inexpensively (rather than cheaply) made; no where near what she had returned. To my knowledge, none of the outdoor suppliers even CARRIED this obscure pad).
Upon calling in to ask what happened to her 'like replacement' and saying that since they do not seem to make an INSULATED rectangular (air mattress type) pad any more, she said that she could live with the Adventurer AC, even though she prefers (and returned) a rectangular mattress. (The Adventurer AC is at least a quasi-rectangular pad - kind of a cross between a mummy & a rectangular)
She was told that she could have a rectangular NON-insulated pad (the Classic AC) in exchange but was told that unless she paid an 'upcharge' she could not have the pad replaced with their current insulated pad, the Adventurer AC (which would merely be equal to the one she sent in). Anyone who has used both knows that there is a substantial difference (both in price and performance) of an insulated pad vs. a NON-insulated pad.

It makes a person wonder.... What good is company with a so-called lifetime warranty that will not honor it?

So... buyer beware when dealing with Pacific Outdoor Equipment.

[TravelPro]

A few years ago my Vasque boots, very pricey boots sold with an unlimited lifetime warranty, had the soles crumble on them...chemical breakdown of the soles, which Google showed as a known widespread problem for several years of production.
Called to have the 'lifetime warranty' honored. Kid tells me 'Oh, we don't do the lifetime warranty anymore."
They kept disavowing the lifetime warranty, using various random excuses, until I gave up in disgust.
I wrote the CEO, never even got a response. I'll never buy Vasque again.
On the other hand, REI and LL Bean among others have my loyalty for life because they stand behind their stuff.

[STICK]

Wow, this thread is getting around. I decided when I read the OP post and then the owner from POE's response, I was glad I stayed with my super duper NeoAir!

[cynhikr]

I wrote the CEO, never even got a response. I'll never buy Vasque again.
On the other hand, REI and LL Bean among others have my loyalty for life because they stand behind their stuff.

Yes, I wrote the President of POE (after sluething his email addy online). After enduring his rhetoric, that included offers to "make it right" I ended up with just that...... an OFFER to 'make it right'; but when it came down to MAKE it right, they did nothing but offer more rhetoric. This went for Ryan in customer service(?) and Greg, the president.
I was hoping that this treatment was an anomaly - but it appears that is is part of their "mission statement".
It's sad that this is how some companies treat their repeat customers - seems the inverse of how Cascade and others do it.

Beware of Pacific Outdoor Equipment.

[hikerboy57]

I cant understand in this competitive world today why any company would not do everything within their power to keep an exisiting customer.It takes a tremendous amount of money spent on advertising, catalogs, internet maintenance,etc. to attract one single customer compared to the small amount of money spent to keep an existing customer happy. They seem to forget that unsatisfied customers never come back, and that bad news travels faster than good news If they arent willing to go the extra yard, then take your business somewhere else. One quality shared by the best business models on the planet is an unswerving dedication to outstanding customer service. Take your business where they value it.

[restless]

What I don't understand is why hikers feel that their equipment should have a warranty that no other product has. Does your car have a lifetime warranty where, after driving it for 20 years, you can return it because the transmission fails? Do you get a lifetime warranty for a vacuum cleaner to be replaced after it breaks down after a few years of use? Is there a lifetime warranty for a coffee maker that ceases to work after years of service? Then why do we expect our gear to last forever, and when it doesn't, expect the company to replace it? Nothing lasts forever, even top quality gear. If you use it, it's going to break. Just replace it. Otherwise we will continue to pay more for our hobby.

[hikerboy57]

What I don't understand is why hikers feel that their equipment should have a warranty that no other product has. Does your car have a lifetime warranty where, after driving it for 20 years, you can return it because the transmission fails? Do you get a lifetime warranty for a vacuum cleaner to be replaced after it breaks down after a few years of use? Is there a lifetime warranty for a coffee maker that ceases to work after years of service? Then why do we expect our gear to last forever, and when it doesn't, expect the company to replace it? Nothing lasts forever, even top quality gear. If you use it, it's going to break. Just replace it. Otherwise we will continue to pay more for our hobby.

I
I disagree with you here.Its usually a very small percentage of customers who complain about a product, and the money needed to satisfy is miniscule compared to the potential loss of business. I work for a car dealership, and we have dealt with customers with non warrantied repairs where we met them halfway or even paid the whole bill.We may be the exception rather than the rule, but to us its just good business.They were all local customers who had done business with us before, and we get quite a few referrals from them, so its paid off.You are right that some people have unrealistic expectations, and these we've said no to.But if Im dealing with a somewhat reasonable person, I will go out of my way to ensure we can keep him loyal.
PS I have personally bought quite a bit of crap over the years, never complained. just never did business with them again.My Garmont flash boots lasted all of 3 months, maybe 300 miles, threw em away, replaced them with Keens. Now im going Merrill moab ventilators, not that Im unhappy with the Keens whcih are super comfortable, but Im trying to shed some more shoe weight.

[cynhikr]

Whomever is offering the warranty has carte blanche as to the terms of the warranty (within legal guidelines).
No one should offer more than they can deliver.
This failure is most obviously a manufacturing or design defect - it is not 'worn out' or 'broken'.
Call me an 'idealist', but I think that if anyone for any reason makes a promise, they should keep it.
POE's 'promise'
"All Pacific Outdoor Equipment product is warranted against defects in materials and workmanship for the lifetime of the product. Should at any time you find one of these rare defects, we will repair or replace the product at our option."

[Toolshed]

A few years ago my Vasque boots, very pricey boots sold with an unlimited lifetime warranty, had the soles crumble on them...chemical breakdown of the soles, which Google showed as a known widespread problem for several years of production.
Called to have the 'lifetime warranty' honored. Kid tells me 'Oh, we don't do the lifetime warranty anymore."
They kept disavowing the lifetime warranty, using various random excuses, until I gave up in disgust.
I wrote the CEO, never even got a response. I'll never buy Vasque again.
On the other hand, REI and LL Bean among others have my loyalty for life because they stand behind their stuff.

You never know - you might be buying Vasque if you buy REI or Beans Store brands.....

[restless]

Reading your original post, it definitely seems that POE dropped the ball in honoring their warranty. Unfortunately, it the outdoor products industry, products change rather rapidly and what is available today may not be available next year. However, once again, after several years of use, I would not be surprised if the delamination issue with the pad was in fact, just normal wear and tear. I have had this happen on a couple of Therm-A-Rest pads that I have owned. This type of issue occurs as a result of the naturally occurring oils in the body. To expect an item to last forever is an unrealistic expectation. In a sport such as backpacking, our gear does receive a heavy amount of wear and tear. After using an item for several years, it is had to justify that the problem is a defect in materials and workmanship. Defects usually show up pretty quickly.

[4Bears]

What I don't understand is why hikers feel that their equipment should have a warranty that no other product has. Does your car have a lifetime warranty where, after driving it for 20 years, you can return it because the transmission fails? Do you get a lifetime warranty for a vacuum cleaner to be replaced after it breaks down after a few years of use? Is there a lifetime warranty for a coffee maker that ceases to work after years of service? Then why do we expect our gear to last forever, and when it doesn't, expect the company to replace it? Nothing lasts forever, even top quality gear. If you use it, it's going to break. Just replace it. Otherwise we will continue to pay more for our hobby.

Reading your original post, it definitely seems that POE dropped the ball in honoring their warranty. Unfortunately, it the outdoor products industry, products change rather rapidly and what is available today may not be available next year. However, once again, after several years of use, I would not be surprised if the delamination issue with the pad was in fact, just normal wear and tear. I have had this happen on a couple of Therm-A-Rest pads that I have owned. This type of issue occurs as a result of the naturally occurring oils in the body. To expect an item to last forever is an unrealistic expectation. In a sport such as backpacking, our gear does receive a heavy amount of wear and tear. After using an item for several years, it is had to justify that the problem is a defect in materials and workmanship. Defects usually show up pretty quickly.

Here is a clue Restless, LIFETIME means LIFETIME plain and simple. I have bought other products with a LIFETIME waranty and it has been honored, it didn't matter that I bought it 1 or 20 years ago. The OP should start by reporting POE to the BBB, the FTC the States Atty. General followed by what he is doing and including writing letters to trade magazines and to the publications they advertise in for example "Bacpacker". If some outfit offers a lifetime waranty on an item they are obligated to make it right. If they dropped the item from their line they are still obligated to make it right with like kind items, which in this case they seem to be trying to pull a fast one.

[Chubbs4U]

Kind of on subject. I recently had some crappy customer service from Dell and Sirius. I emailed everyone I could on their board of directors and also contacted the BBB. Both of the situations were resolved to my liking. It did take a while but i did get what I wanted. The thing is with some of these companies is that they give you the run around til you just give up. I will deal with Sirius again but will never buy anything that Dell makes or sells.

[Feral Bill]

What I don't understand is why hikers feel that their equipment should have a warranty that no other product has. Does your car have a lifetime warranty where, after driving it for 20 years, you can return it because the transmission fails? Do you get a lifetime warranty for a vacuum cleaner to be replaced after it breaks down after a few years of use? Is there a lifetime warranty for a coffee maker that ceases to work after years of service? Then why do we expect our gear to last forever, and when it doesn't, expect the company to replace it? Nothing lasts forever, even top quality gear. If you use it, it's going to break. Just replace it. Otherwise we will continue to pay more for our hobby.

I do not expect a lifetime warranty on my gear. When one is given by the seller or maker, however, I absolutly expect it to be honored. These warranties are a marketing tool, not charity. I do not abuses such warranties.

[Nutbrown]

I respect the REI lifetime warranty. I have only used it for things that have man. defects, but have seen people bring in their boots that have been worn down to the nubs. They still honored the lifetime warranty, even though the boots looked like they had been worn a lifetime. Nothin but respect for REI.

[mudhead]

I have seen that with LLBean boots. I was embarrassed. I have no issue claiming warranty on a defect, but after a certain point I have gotten my money's worth.

[rdljr]

Got great service from L.L. Bean last week, tent seam started to fail, took it in hoping to just get it restiched because I no longer have the origonal stuff sack or pegs. Well long story short they have shipped me whole new tent and because of some special they were having a bonus $20 gift card. Yes they will get more of my money in the long run.

[jbwood5]

I do not expect a lifetime warranty on my gear. When one is given by the seller or maker, however, I absolutly expect it to be honored. These warranties are a marketing tool, not charity. I do not abuses such warranties.

I absolutely agree. They lured you to their product with the lifetime warranty and when they don't honor it, that is false advertising and the company should be prosecuted.

More than anything, they cut their own throat because, as it was just said, news travels fast in this world of nearly instant communications.

[TravelPro]

+1 for both REI and LL Bean. I buy from them often because of the great service. I would NEVER abuse their warranty policy. And I love sending other people to buy from them, who will in turn be happy and tell others. Positive loop.

[Wise Old Owl]

A few years ago my Vasque boots, very pricey boots sold with an unlimited lifetime warranty, had the soles crumble on them...chemical breakdown of the soles, which Google showed as a known widespread problem for several years of production.
Called to have the 'lifetime warranty' honored. Kid tells me 'Oh, we don't do the lifetime warranty anymore."
They kept disavowing the lifetime warranty, using various random excuses, until I gave up in disgust.
I wrote the CEO, never even got a response. I'll never buy Vasque again.
On the other hand, REI and LL Bean among others have my loyalty for life because they stand behind their stuff.

Clearly things change and nothing last forever, you are more than welcome to check in when we are both a hundred years old.... I won't be there, just in spirit. It was a stupid warranty to begin with. Dick Sporting Goods has the worst service and warranties, but you can get a Merrell or a Keen or a Vasque - buy it - run it into the ground and return it soaking from the back of your truck a year later IF you have the reciept...

dumbest policy ever....

[Wise Old Owl]

Found this on another site..

Jack

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:08 pm

I bought a pair of Vasque hiking boots about 15 years ago and am almost certain that I was told that they came with a lifetime warranty. Several times over the years I have had issues with the boots and they have fixed them for no charge. Now they are telling me that they never had a lifetime warranty. Does anyone know anything about the warranty. Has the warranty changed since Red Wing bought Vasque? The warrenty is not available on their site.