Unsupported semantics

[Violent Green]

Seems that for the most part everyone agrees that hitch hiking is OK for the unsupported thru-hike classification. Where do shuttles fall? Namely, unaffiliated 3rd parties that are paid in advance(or maybe not) to shuttle the hiker from trail to town & back to trail. I was trying to explain supported vs unsupported to a friend and couldn't provide a rock solid answer for that question. Opinion?

Ryan

[tdoczi]

thats because there is no such thing as unsupported, so its really just an unsolvable argument over degree of support. sending yourself maildrops is, in effect, hiring the postal service to transport items to you along the trial, ie, bought and paid for support. why that would be ok but paying someone to resupply you isnt youd have to ask someone else, cause i dont get it.

seems it boils down to what a typical thru hiker would do vs what typical thru hikers dont do. well, your typical thru hikder does things slackpack mt moosilauke southbound while doing a nobo thru hike, so i guess thats ok and counts as unsupported?

its all a bunch of nonsense.

[paistes5]

Not really sure of why the discussion, but in my mind, supported means a dedicated staff to help you with the hike.

If you want to call getting a shuttle or hitching supported, then you could take it down to the nth degree.

Can't eat at a restaurant, you didn't make the food, can't sleep in a hotel or hostel, can't do mail drops, can't accept trail magic, etc.

[max patch]

seems it boils down to what a typical thru hiker would do vs what typical thru hikers dont do. well, your typical thru hikder does things slackpack mt moosilauke southbound while doing a nobo thru hike,

No, your typical thru hiker does not do that.

[Sly]

You set your own rules...

As far as an unsupported thru-hike it seems that sending mail drops has always been accepted, where as supported means a crew is helping and usually done without a backpack. Scott Williamson is trying to beat the "unassisted" record on the PCT which he already holds. His view is that he can send himself mail drops and that any ride in car voids the attempt.

[Lostone]

The Rules for records.

I know some people must have competition

Jennifer did it supported, pretty much as supported as you can get. Rides, food, water all waiting at the next road crossing.

Natureboy started it unsupported, but with sponsors and begging for pizza and all of the people offering him trail magic I am not sure it was truly unsupported.

Of course the days of the casual records are over.

My time in the woods is to valuable to rush thru it. Some day I may thru hike, I hope to enjoy my trip and my brothers and sisters I meet along the way.

[tdoczi]

No, your typical thru hiker does not do that.

perhaps saying the typical thru hiker does it is exagerrating, but ive seen droves of them do it. once one bends and does it most of the people in the bubble with them go along with it, and then slackpack the kinsman ridge the next day.

[tdoczi]

You set your own rules...

As far as an unsupported thru-hike it seems that sending mail drops has always been accepted, where as supported means a crew is helping and usually done without a backpack. Scott Williamson is trying to beat the "unassisted" record on the PCT which he already holds. His view is that he can send himself mail drops and that any ride in car voids the attempt.

and if sending maildrops (hiring the post office is ok) then i say hiring someone to meet you at a roadcrossing somewhere there is no convenient post office is no different. most people would disagree with this statement, but theres no logic in the disagreement.

and if you follow logic and concede that hiring someone to meet you once is ok, then at what number of hires does it become not ok? its an arbitrary argument with no reason behind it.

[CrumbSnatcher]

How about if your attempting an unsupported record attempt SOBO, starting at BIG k ,you've made it to gorham,NH.(rt.#2)
hitch in to Gorham(not a preplanned ride) and grab a bite to eat and grab some supplies, head over to the motel and book a room, leaving your pack in the room to head back out(thumbing it all the way) to hike the additional(20) miles to Pinkham Notch, hoping to hitch back(not preplanned ride) to the motel
is that ok? for unsupported :-)

[matthew.d.kirk]

According to the definitions provided by Peter Bakwin, people often use the term "unsupported" incorrectly. To my knowledge no one has ever successfully completed an unsupported thru-hike of the AT nor a hike much longer than 1000K for that matter.

Definitions below come from http://pbakwin.home.comcast.net/~pbakwin/FKT.html

Supported, self-supported, unsupported? What does it mean?
· Supported means you have a dedicated support team that meets you along the way to supply whatever you need. This generally allows for the fastest, lightest trips, and for an element of camaraderie and safety, since someone knows about where you are at all times.

· Self-supported means that you don't carry everything you need from the start, but you don't have dedicated, pre-arranged people helping you. This is commonly done a couple different ways: You might put out stashes of supplies for yourself prior to the trip, or you might just use what's out there, such as stores, begging from other trail users, etc.

· Unsupported means you have no external support of any kind. Typically, this means that you must carry all your supplies right from the start, except any water that can be obtained along the way from natural sources. This approach has also been termed "alpine style". The longest trip I'm aware of using this style is Coup's 20-day thru-hike of the Colorado Trail. For most people, carrying enough food for more than a few days to one week will be prohibitive.

[Slo-go'en]

If I were making up the definitions, I'd change the above definition of Self-supported to Unsupported as doing a traditional thru-hike. Sure you are "supported" by the trail inferstructure, but your basically on your own in taking advantage of it.

Then I'd change Unsupported to be Self-reliant, in that you bring everything you need, including food, with you and you do not take advantage of any trail inferstructure. That would be truely difficult to pull of and puts you back in time to the colonial days.

[tdoczi]

If I were making up the definitions, I'd change the above definition of Self-supported to Unsupported as doing a traditional thru-hike. Sure you are "supported" by the trail inferstructure, but your basically on your own in taking advantage of it.

Then I'd change Unsupported to be Self-reliant, in that you bring everything you need, including food, with you and you do not take advantage of any trail inferstructure. That would be truely difficult to pull of and puts you back in time to the colonial days.

ok, so then if you accept a hostel's offer of them shuttling you up the trail 20 miles to slackpack in the opposite direction and stay a second night at the hostel, you are just using the trail infrastructure and therefore hiking unsupported, right?

what if i open a business whose purpose is to follow hikers and resupply them, i'd be part of the trail infrastructure then, wouldnt i?

its all just hiking, the rest of this is nonsense. it only matters for purposes of records anyway and the record is doing whatever you need to do to to hike as fast as possible. the application of limits is by people who are just jealous that they lack the means to remove those limits from themselves.

[Sly]

and if sending maildrops (hiring the post office is ok) then i say hiring someone to meet you at a roadcrossing somewhere there is no convenient post office is no different. most people would disagree with this statement, but theres no logic in the disagreement.

and if you follow logic and concede that hiring someone to meet you once is ok, then at what number of hires does it become not ok? its an arbitrary argument with no reason behind it.

Like I said, you set your own rules. You don't hire the PO, they're part of the trail infrastructure and have been used since day one.

If you're attempting to set a record you can set your own rules. if you're attempting to break an established record you need to follow the rules the record holder used.

If you hired someone to meet you at road crossings and resupply you along the way, IMO, that would be a supported hike.

[Slo-go'en]

If you hired someone to meet you at road crossings and resupply you along the way, IMO, that would be a supported hike.

Indeed.

Slack packing? I guess you can argue either way on that one.

[Violent Green]

Like I said, you set your own rules. You don't hire the PO, they're part of the trail infrastructure and have been used since day one.

If you're attempting to set a record you can set your own rules. if you're attempting to break an established record you need to follow the rules the record holder used.

If you hired someone to meet you at road crossings and resupply you along the way, IMO, that would be a supported hike.

I like your line of thinking on this Sly. As long as you play by the same rules as the person whose record you are trying to break, it doesn't really matter how it's classified. Since the unsupported record holder is Ward L., I wonder if he just walked to all of the towns. I wonder if anyone even knows since it was several years ago now.

[tdoczi]

You don't hire the PO,

so its free then?

by all means, i dont disagree with the conclusion that you set your own rules, i'm just pointing out that generally people accept things that are really no different than things they dont accept. call it whatever you want, sending maildrops is hiring someone to bring supplies to you at a point you designate and hold them for you until you pick them up. thats why hostels got in on the act, same thing. but if someone drives the supplies to you suddenly most people go "nononono you cant do that!"

[Sly]

Indeed.

Slack packing? I guess you can argue either way on that one.

Well, if someone is attempting to break an unsupported or unassisted record, yeah, again IMO, slackpacking wouldn't count.

[Sly]

so its free then?

You pay a fee to mail a package, but the PO doesn't go out of its way in such a way as someone paid to meet you at trail crossings.

You're trying to put it on a level like a grocery store holding your food until you get there.

[sbhikes]

I think all these records are dumb. There are people out there breaking the records all the time who don't say a word about it. So those who crow about or keep track of records, supported or unsupported or whatever, don't even really know for sure if they've been broken or not.

[tdoczi]

You pay a fee to mail a package, but the PO doesn't go out of its way in such a way as someone paid to meet you at trail crossings.

You're trying to put it on a level like a grocery store holding your food until you get there.

so the determination is how put out the people helping you are? i mean really, think about what youre saying (and really its not just you, youre expressing what is probably the majority opinion on the subject) it makes no sense. what difference is it whether the people helping you get your supplies are going out of their way or not? theyre still helping you, at your request, and only because theyre being financially reciprocated by you.

sure, you can argue the PO is just doing its job and is "infrastructure" but the reality is that these days theres tons of "infrastructure" there solely for the purpose of making money from helping hikers passing through. do you need to avoid all of these in order to hike unsupported? i doubt youd say yes. and i say if youre not going to avoid them all then you are welcome to use as many as you want, as often as you want and to whatever ridiculous extremes of putting others out of their way youre able to arrange.

i ordered a pizza from pen mar park on a section hike, was it supported? i mean the driver went out of his way....