obvious
It's obvious you speak of wingnut.
THE Mairnttt...Boys of Dryland '03 (an unplanned Billville suburb)
http://www.AT2003.com
[email protected]
http://www.myspace.com/hudson_hartson
Give Wingnut a sack of salted fresh roasted pecans, and he'll be a new man.
Of course not. It is a deception.Originally Posted by madmantra
Unless, of course, you go to them and say, "I have no intention of buying anything from you. I only want to get as much information as I can from you so that I buy items somewhere else cheaper than you sell them for."
Say that, and I'd have to say you were being ethical. Otherwise, you are not being truthful.
My 2 cents.
Frosty
Nonsense. Since when do you have to "declare your intentions" when entering a public market? It's not like you're visiting the store owner's daughter. Since when are you required to purchase something for the privilege of entering or leaving? You're not stealing anything by window shopping. If anything, you're contributing to the appearance of the business being busy and filled with shoppers, which is a plus. If anything, the owner should give you a spork just for stopping by.
I've gone into outdoor stores, usually outdoor sections of large sports stores, and checked out stuff, roamed the aisles, pulled equipment out and unboxed it, and nobody came to ask if I needed help. I've also asked for assistance and found that the salesperson had no idea what I was talking about. In those cases I didn't feel bad about walking out and ordering the same equipment on-line.
But then I've also been to places with extremely helpful staff who have spent time discussing my gear needs and their merchandise (Atlanta's northside REI store and Reality Bikes in Little Five Points to plug two examples). I'll buy there, and return there, because I appreciate good service and I've taken the time of an employee who could have been helping someone else.
Never.
You never turned around to see the frowns
On the jugglers and the clowns
When they all did tricks for you.
I believe a Talmudic proverb enjoins one against entering a store with no intention to buy. While I'd happily make allowances for window shopping, or a period of info gathering and comparisons, I would say that if one's intention is to gather information and take someone's time and then go home and buy it elsewhere, that is unethical. Or test-driving a Lexus when your next stop is the Hyundai dealership is probably an unethical use of a dealer's time. Now, if in the course of one's research, someone legitimately finds a better deal, or decides that the Hyundai really is more sensible, that might be a different matter. Intention has something to do with it.
Ethics... a whole can of tuna. Basically, personal ethics are the rules we set for ourselves that allow us to function in society in such a way as to be comfortable with ourselves. If you don't feel comfortable with what you have done then find out why and do what needs to be done to fix it.
There are few outfitters where I live but I do cruise those that are here, sometimes buying sometimes not. A lot depends on price, if they have what I want/need and quality. I'm not "required" to spend in a store but any clerk that gives of his/her time and knowledge recieves my thanks and a smile. If they go the extra bit to be helpfull it puts the place in mind for when I am looking for a specific item that they might carry. I may not get a big ticket item but usually make enough smaller buys before leaving.
As to editing your post.... When posting on someones web site you're playing in their sand box. They set the rules, and if they want to rearange the toys or tell you to pick them up and go home it's their right.
Here at WB, we may squabble in the sand box (even throw sand at each other) but unless you get really out of hand there will be no editing..... there may be times when you want to go back and edit your own posts rather then have them on record and people do use that feature.
I'll have to chime in here with NICKTHEGREEK. If we don't support the smaller outfitter soon they won't be there.
Some of the outfitters along the AT will also ship to you and this can be a good way to get gear while supporting the businesses along the trail. Last year I was looking for a specific bag not sold locally. Through this forum I was directed to Bear Mountain Outfitters, which sold the line and had the exact bag in stock when everyone else was out. I was glad to make the purchase from a small business along the AT.
Granted we are all on a budget, but if we fail to support the small outfitters they won't be there when we need them. So for bigger ticket items such as WM bags or packs, before you mail order from a large retailer I'd encourage you to query here and look to support AT businesses. Plus the personal level of service you get in talking with these guys is beyond what you'll get from salesreps at the big stores.
Finally, while we are imbued with the whole notion of competition and purchasing from the cheapest source, give some consideration to where that ultimately will lead. Anybody on here that's been around for awhile has seen numerous small businesses fall by the wayside to larger corporations. Neat thing is we all believe this is BEST for us
Cheaper prices, faster service all while economic power is increasingly centralized and wealth increasingly concentrated. Hmmmm..... Of course we tend to be concerned with the here and now and right here and now we can live with it. And we're all into the nature thing, so we can invoke Darwin here as well.
Okay I'm off my soapbox. I've got to run to Wal Mart real quick before a buddy and I zip on over to Best Buy and see what kind of deals they have on surround sound systems!!
You know...I was thinking about this editing thing. I really don't see an ethical way for someone to do this. I mean, I see them deleting the whole post or even asking you to leave, but not change your words. If someone changes your words and makes you look like you are saying something that you are not....that is wrong, in my opinion. If anyone was able to do this, how could we know the true opinions of anyone. People could edit audio, or video tapes to make a public official seem like he supported something that he doesn't. This is the highest form of lying to me. That doesn't mean WF can't do it, it's just wrong. I wouldn't give him, or anyone else who did this my words to edit again.
It funny this post surfaced this weekend as I wrestled with this very dilemma while buying shoes.
My local outfitter (which for some reason is going out of business) suffered from a severe lack of customer service. Every time, EVERY TIME, I went to my local outfitter, I had to seek out an individual to ask a question and this usually involved pulling them away from a riviting conversation about their art class at the local university. Normally their input on a particular piece of gear was limited to "well, we sell a lot of that model, so it must be good," or "the colors are not very popular with hikers this season, perhaps you'd like something in a red?" With this level of customer service, I have no problem using the store as a fititng room. I will not support a business that does not take the time to hire qualified individuals who are there to help the customer.
This past weekend I stopped off in Jacksonville to try on shoes at Black Creek Trading Post. The sales staff greeted me at the door, let me browse uninterupted, and when I needed help to try on shoes, I was sized, and properly fitted. I tried on just about every shoe, and the employee didn't bat an eye - she even brought most of the shoes out without being asked. She didn't push one shoe over another, she was just interested in finding the best fit. I didn't leave with the most expensive pair, nor the least, but I did leave under budget, with a pair I feel very comfortable in.
When I stop at an outfitter to check out gear, I don't mind spending a few dollars more if the outfitter is friendly, helpful, or at least upfront about their limitations (ie we just got that in and don't have much experience with it...) I know I can find these particular shoes on the net for less, but I have to support a business that strongly committed to customer service.
The one in Jacksonville, FL? That is good to know. When I get done out here I have to do some shopping, boots being one of the items I have to replace. I have been wondering if I would be able to find a decent outfitter who can fit boots.
This past weekend I stopped off in Jacksonville to try on shoes at Black Creek Trading Post.
1) Maybe.
2) Maybe not.
"Ethics" and "morality" are essentally synonymous, and they are not universals, to the extent they are systems: An ethical system - a religion may be one - has core beliefs that must be followed and, which, if followed, will lead to "right action." "Thou shalt not kill leads to people not killing each other. But one system, in terms of the behavior called for, may be both internally consistent ("Do no work on Sunday" applies to every Sunday) and contrary to other systems ("It is OK to work on Sunday.") Those two sets of behavior aren't, and can't be consistent. But each is equally acceptable for the belief system that requires them. That's why there are religous books - to set out the rules. It's also why there are speed limit signs - also to set out the rules. And it's why it is generally agreed - at least in our pluralistic society - that it is unethical to hold someone accountable, subject to criticism or punishment, for violating rules of behavior of an ethical system without being told in advance that such behavior was unlawful impermissible. Doing so is the classic definition of "arbitrary" conduct.
So, someone may have a set of core beliefs that says, "Small outfitting stores are a highly desireable thing." That makes it easy to say, "Comparison shopping that results in sales elsewhere is bad, and punishable."
It's also possible to say, "I own a website, and I believe that small outfitters are totally good." To say otherwise on that site is, literally, sacreligious, and subject to penalty.
And lastly, it is possible to say, "I own a website, and I can, and will, do anything I wish to or for anyone." That's ethical: It states the value system and the core belief, and others can either live with it or avoid the web site.
It is, however, flat out wrong to not publish, or state, those or similar rules, and then expel someone for violating them. I don't care if the person owns the site or not. Doing so is not, on their part, ethical behavior, but totally arbitrary.
So, the answer to the first is, "Yeah, maybe it is unethical to do that, if you believe it is. If you don't believe that, though, and no other society or community you belong to makes that a part of their beliefs, well, it's not.
And the answer to the second is, "Yeah, if you post the rules to a forum, you can do whatever you want that's consistent with them. But if you don't give advance warning, then calling something a 'forum' is a free discussion within whatever other rules ARE stated. In other words, even God should play fair. And so should backpacking website owners.
The Weasel
"Thank God! there is always a Land of Beyond, For us who are true to the trail..." --- Robert Service
Yes - Black Creek Trading Post is off of Gate Parkway (which is off of J turner Butler Blvd (aka JTB)) and is a bit hard to find if you've never been before. The helpful staff makes the trip worthwhile for me - but I usually am in Jax for other reasons. Erica helped me this weekend, but I have yet to meet a sales person that is not friendly, helpful, and well informed!
A local outfitter who had a very friendly staff closed its doors last month. I liked them, but I never bought a large gear item there. Also to be truthful, they never had any advise that I couldn't find on hiking forums like this one. The small retailer cannot compete with the internet.
I'm not big on the practice, but I have been known to do it. It is almost impossible not to shop somewhere and buy somewhere else when you are an aggressive comparitive shopper. This weekend I was in LL Bean in Freeport and took a long, hard look at the various titanium and aluminum cookpots available. They had some MSR offerings as well as a couple of Snowpeak pieces. I rather liked the Snowpeak stuff, the MSR pieces were nice, but pricey and large, really just titanium versions of their steel cookpots. For real lightweight alcohol stove work the MSR pots are wildly oversized. I'm not certain about the kettle.
I wasn't ready to buy yet and there are a number of other pieces I want to look at first. So When I do buy I'll find it from the best source available.
However, I buy quite a bit from LL Bean, including shoes, shirts, boots for my kids, etc. so I don't feel guilty.
But if you go into a shop to just try on a few things with the intention of buying them on the Internet...then you may have some ethical concerns.
A Webmaster may ethically edit the postings of people on his or her forums IF and only if he has a posted list of rules and the posting clearly violates those rules. A webmaster whose rules change without notice or on a whim, has an ethical problem though he remains within his rights to edit as he sees fit the materials on his site.
Just my opinion.
Andrew "Iceman" Priestley
AT'95, GA>ME
Non nobis Domine, non nobis sed Nomini Tuo da Gloriam
Not for us O Lord, not for us but in Your Name is the Glory
I would like to point out a couple of things:
Just because you are buying online doesn't mean the place is not a 'mom and pop' shop. Many 'local' outfitters sell online too because it expands their customer base. You can buy online AND support a small business - a win-win situation IMO.
Just because you are shopping a local outfitter doesn't mean the kids that work there know anymore about the gear than you do. Local shops usually have better staff than big box shops as a rule, but there are exceptions. I don't mind paying more for advice and to support a local shop, but if their staff is not helpful then I'd just as soon save my money and spend it elsewhere. After all, the gear is not going to be different between this store and another, so why pay more unless the place you are paying more for the item has some knowledge to impart.
I'm sure lots of 'local' outfitters think it is a great idea to open a shop and sell gear, and then find that their 'if we build it they will come' mentality was all wrong. People work hard for their money, and if you want to charge more than the next guy for something you better have an angle....
"If trees could talk, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? Maybe....if they screamed all the time, and for no good reason" - Jack Handey
I think you should support your local businesses and buy the item off the shelf if the difference in price is reasonable.
(Unless they are really ripping you off, or you have some other reason to hate the store.)
Sure, why not? However, I only buy stuff on the 'net these days if it's a REALLY good deal, and even then I sometimes regret it. There's no substitute for face-to-face service with a local, reputable outfitter.
Frank/Nightwalker
Absolutely they can. Here in Greenville (SC) we have Half Moon Outfitters, Mast General Store, Appalachian Outfitters and Sunrift Adventures. Of those, only Mast is a chain, and it's a chain of only three stores.
Little stores succeed by giving superior service and equipment. The prices have to be okay, but no one expects them to be on the level of REI.
Frank/Nightwalker
Well, for us in Maine LL Bean is a "local store," but I somehow I think of them differently than I do the small independent trail store, of which Maine has several. I don't check out stuff in the uncrowded showrooms of the independents in order to later buy it at LL Bean.
LL Bean doesn't need my help. It is probably the most successful outdoors merchandizer in the world, and for good reason. They mostly sell good sturdy, useful stuff at fair prices, and with a return policy that is as good as you can get -- though I've never actually returned anything. I've never bought anything that failed to work as promised. Most of it just gradually succumbs to wear and tear. Technically I could take a worn out jacket back and get a refund. I don't. But some do. A lot of the stuff Bean donates to Maine Good Will stores is stuff returned by customers. One can usually tell. Bean cuts out the labels, leaving just enough of the fringe for those in the know to tell the place of origin. I bought my favorite spring and fall work jacket from Good Will for $5. It had frayed knit cuffs when I bought it and still does after five years. But it remains as functional as it was the day it left the factory.
For a while there was a fad by some thru hikers to buy everything at LL Bean and then return it for a refund on their way home from Katahdin. As far as I know the scheme still works for those with the gall and lack of ethics(?) to do so.
Weary
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