How do I enhance my cold weather sleeping bag and pad?

[Creek Dancer]

I recently purchased a Big Agnes Storm King 0-degree down bag and a Big Agnes insulated sleeping pad which is rated R-15. The sleeping bag is the type where there is no down on the underside of the bag and the pad slips into a pocket. On a recent cold night, when the temps got down to about 30, my boyfriend and I tested the gear outside on a concrete patio. (This was the coldest night here in central North Carolina.) The upper part of the bag kept me plenty warm (as expected for a mere 30 degrees), but I felt some coolness underneath. My concern is that this “coolness” will turn to “COLD” in much colder temperatures, like down into to the teens.

Anyway, I want to improve the efficacy of the insulated pad, and of course I don’t want to spend a ton of money or carry a lot more weight. J I know one of those cheap Wal-Mart pads would help, but that’s a lot of bulk to carry. Any other ideas?

Thanks so much for your help.

Creeky

[pyroman53]

While I am not an engineer, I think testing your bag on concrete is probably one of the harder tests you could have chosen. It might be worse than sleeping on snow. As to improving the results, you've got the right idea - add insulation.

Your idea of using the Blue Walmart pad is about all I can think of. Sure there are other closed cell foam pad choices, but short of getting another air mattress that's warmer, thats about all I can think of. I am a cold sleeper and have had no luck with the BA pads below 40 degrees, even the insulated one, which sounds like what you have.

I would say to add the ccf pad on top of the air mattress, but that's always a good discussion in itself.

[10-K]

The concrete was the problem. Pitch your tent on real ground, sleep inside the tent and see how that works.

That is, do a real life simulation.

[scope]

All true regarding concrete which was no doubt colder than normal ground. Keep in mind, the more you heat up both your bag and pad, the more efficient they become at insulating, not only from the cold, but in retaining your heat. So much of how your system works depends on what you put into it.

Get into your bag warm, and don't wear so many clothes that they act as a barrier between your body heat and the bag. Both are somewhat impractical, so a hot water bottle between your legs does a good job of producing the heat needed to start the system right at the beginning of the night, which in turn makes your system more efficient through the night.

[Toolshed]

Agree with the concrete comment. I think snow is even warmer LOL..
However, you may not want to deal with the bulk of another pad, but it is a safety system in the winter. In the event your pad blows a hole or gets melted or leaks near a seam or valvestem. The blue foam pad is your backup system. You can try to get away with cut-up sections of pad for under your hips, shoulders and feet (or use your empty pack), but for true winter and cold weather safety, I rely on 2 pads. If you really hate bulk, you can use also bring another self-inflating pad...

[tridavis]

This is what you need: http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Pad/DualCore Made a world of difference in really cold weather.

[Papa D]

yes - what was said about concrete is true - I love sleeping on snow - my pad works right into a nice depression - make sure you do the following:

1) use a good pad -- thermarest 3/4"?
2) use a liner - I use a Montbell liner / vapor barrier - keeps things clean, adds about 5 deg to the rating
3) wear long johns but not a whole pile of clothing over that - too much makes you colder
4) wear a stocking cap
5) stay hydrated, eat carbs, and don't hold pee in (go before you go to bed - twice if possible)
6) sleep with a hot water bottle - good nalgene works fine - put it in your crotch
7) have a shot of whisky and a bit of chocolate - I don't care what they say about blood thinning - it's cold

[glaux]

I have a BA 15 degree bag, but it fails to keep me warm at 35 degrees. It's fine for 40+, though.

[Camping Dave]

Sure, concrete transfers heat well, but it's not the problem given the reasonably mild temps we've had on the east coast. If the cold seeps in from concrete at 30 degrees, it's going to pour in when you get down to 5 or 10. You need more insulation. Don't go out on a really cold night without more insulation because of questionable advice you get here. Get the dual core pad, or get a thin foam pad and put it on top of your air pad in the sleeve. If the cheap blue Walmart pad won't fit you can buy thinner (down to 1/8th inch thickness) pads online. Strap the pad on top of your pack. You won't notice the bulk.

[skinewmexico]

BA makes a sleeping pad that is R-15? I don't think so. BPL just tested about 25 mats, and only two of them were above R10. And the R value is effected by the thickness to which the pad is inflated. So I'd get a warmer pad (Exped Downmat 9?) and add a Gossamer Gear thinlight pad if you get cold. Look at some of Tipi Walter's posts, he knows pads. He only goes out in major winter storms I think.

[scope]

I just ditched my 4.9 R-rated BA pad for an Exped downmat rated 8-R.

[Creek Dancer]

Sure, concrete transfers heat well, but it's not the problem given the reasonably mild temps we've had on the east coast. If the cold seeps in from concrete at 30 degrees, it's going to pour in when you get down to 5 or 10. You need more insulation. Don't go out on a really cold night without more insulation because of questionable advice you get here. Get the dual core pad, or get a thin foam pad and put it on top of your air pad in the sleeve. If the cheap blue Walmart pad won't fit you can buy thinner (down to 1/8th inch thickness) pads online. Strap the pad on top of your pack. You won't notice the bulk.

As background, I am a seasoned backpacker and I have slept outdoors into the single digits, including on snow, many times. My previous cold weather sleeping gear was a Marmot Helium (15 degrees) and a BA Insulated Air Core. This previous setup worked fine for me, but I wanted a lower rated bag. I have concerns about my new set up because of the results of my recent test.

I intentionally slept on concrete, rather than the groud, because I wanted the temperatures underneath me to be as cold as possible for the reasons you described. (The temperature outside was only 30, and that was after a several warm days. I didn't think the ground would be very cold.) I realize I need more insulation underneath me which is why I posted the question here.

Gossamer Gear's pads are not very expensive and I can cut it to fit inside the underside pocket of my sleeping bag. This might be a good solution. Or what about using Reflextic (sp??) material, similar to the stuff that they make windsheild visors from? I read that this stuff has a R value of 4. This wouild be an inexpensive, lightweight and not bulky. But would this help? Anybody tried this?

I don't know where I got R-15 for the pad from. That is not correct. What I read is that the pad has a comfort raing to 15 degrees. Here is the pad: http://www.rei.com/product/815002/bi...ar-special-buy

[Creek Dancer]

I can't do a real life simulation because it's not cold enough around here.

[chelko]

I found what works best for me for two reasons is to use my North Face Goliath 0 dgree bag with a Thermarest full length 25 inch wide pad over a slumberjack full length closed cell foam pad. The Closed cell Foam pad is very light and I deal with the bulkyness by strapping it to the outside of my pack. Not only does it add noticable warmth but the added cushion is very much appriciated especially when sleeping in shelters on hard wooden floors.

I like putting the Foam pad underneath the inflatable one to help protect it from any hazzards on the ground or floor. It also helps keep my inflatable clean.

[Wise Old Owl]

I can't do a real life simulation because it's not cold enough around here.

After reading the thread - the water bottle and layering is a good solution, as for an extra blue pad - not a fan there. So I think that's all you should do- it doesn't get cold enough - and the one night it does? rare, would you really be out in the first place or were you thinking in a emergency? I frequently type the zip code of where I am going - and get a ten day average from intellicast.

[sbhikes]

I recently purchased a Big Agnes Storm King 0-degree down bag and a Big Agnes insulated sleeping pad which is rated R-15. The sleeping bag is the type where there is no down on the underside of the bag and the pad slips into a pocket. On a recent cold night, when the temps got down to about 30, my boyfriend and I tested the gear outside on a concrete patio. (This was the coldest night here in central North Carolina.) The upper part of the bag kept me plenty warm (as expected for a mere 30 degrees), but I felt some coolness underneath. My concern is that this “coolness” will turn to “COLD” in much colder temperatures, like down into to the teens.

Anyway, I want to improve the efficacy of the insulated pad, and of course I don’t want to spend a ton of money or carry a lot more weight. J I know one of those cheap Wal-Mart pads would help, but that’s a lot of bulk to carry. Any other ideas?

Thanks so much for your help.

Creeky

First thing I thought when you said you slept on concrete was Brrrr! What a way to make it feel colder than it really is!

And there's your answer: site selection.

If it's going to be cold enough to put my sleeping bag at the edge of my comfort zone, I try to choose a spot that is under a tree so that the tree branches will provide some shelter from dew, wind and hold some of the heat in. (Make sure there are no branches to fall on you.) Also under a tree I'm more likely to sleep on leaves rather than bare dirt. A nice layer of duff will be more insulated than bare dirt and more comfortable. I try to select a location that is not at the bottom of a cold sink, such as next to a creek or lake or in a meadow. Instead if I can find a site partway up a slope, even only 10 or 20 feet higher in elevation, I know I'll be warmer than at the bottom of a canyon or the top of a windy ridge.

[Creek Dancer]

First thing I thought when you said you slept on concrete was Brrrr! What a way to make it feel colder than it really is!

And there's your answer: site selection.

If it's going to be cold enough to put my sleeping bag at the edge of my comfort zone, I try to choose a spot that is under a tree so that the tree branches will provide some shelter from dew, wind and hold some of the heat in. (Make sure there are no branches to fall on you.) Also under a tree I'm more likely to sleep on leaves rather than bare dirt. A nice layer of duff will be more insulated than bare dirt and more comfortable. I try to select a location that is not at the bottom of a cold sink, such as next to a creek or lake or in a meadow. Instead if I can find a site partway up a slope, even only 10 or 20 feet higher in elevation, I know I'll be warmer than at the bottom of a canyon or the top of a windy ridge.

Like I said, I intentionally tested the set up on concrete because I figured it would be colder than the ground.

Those are all great ideas and some of which I have used in the past. Thanks!

[skinewmexico]

Do the sides of the bag wrap around the pad, or is the pad exposed? If it's exposed, I'd try some Reflectix or Thinmat on top. If it's not exposed, I'd try them underneath the pad. The Big Agnes IAC tested up to R6.8 fully inflated, so it ought to be warm. The GG Thinmat will fold up smaller than the Reflectix, I think.

I do think Marmot makes much better bags. Have you compared EN ratings on the two? And is the Storm King giant?

Had to look at the specs. Your Storm King is 8" bigger in the shoulders and hips than your Marmot, and only has 3 more ounces of a cheaper down. For a rating that is 15 degrees warmer. I now have to fall into the I'm not surprised you felt cool category, even without a bottom. You'd probably have better luck wearing extra clothes in the SK to try to fill some space.

[JAK]

Choosing better ground can make a difference. Not to solid. In winter you want to pick a spot that would not have to much ice in it. Under a spruce tree or something like that is ideal. Don't remember exactly why, but being an evergreen tree, with shallow roots, that needs to drink all year round, it does something to keep it drier and warmer underneath. I think the main thing is that the branches keep the heat from radiating to the sky at night, but there is a little more to it also. I think it has to do with the water going up during the day, warming up, and then going back down at night, so heat from the sun is stored in the ground, and so kept a little warmer than the surroundings. Also, snow is captured and shed by the branches, so the ground doesn't have to melt the snow.

So pick a good spot, especially on really cold nights, and you should be alright. The ground underneath you in winter should not be as cold as the air, at least not on the coldest nights, so you should not need as much r-value under you as over you. Also, if the ground is reasonably aerated, it should also eventually establish a temperature gradient, so it will provide some additional r-value in that sense, but you have to heat it up a bit first. Concrete is the exact opposite of that, on both counts. Similar to solid rock or solid ice. Not good.

You could learn all this from animals. Think like a deer.

[Creek Dancer]

Do the sides of the bag wrap around the pad, or is the pad exposed? If it's exposed, I'd try some Reflectix or Thinmat on top. If it's not exposed, I'd try them underneath the pad. The Big Agnes IAC tested up to R6.8 fully inflated, so it ought to be warm. The GG Thinmat will fold up smaller than the Reflectix, I think.

I do think Marmot makes much better bags. Have you compared EN ratings on the two? And is the Storm King giant?

Had to look at the specs. Your Storm King is 8" bigger in the shoulders and hips than your Marmot, and only has 3 more ounces of a cheaper down. For a rating that is 15 degrees warmer. I now have to fall into the I'm not surprised you felt cool category, even without a bottom. You'd probably have better luck wearing extra clothes in the SK to try to fill some space.

The sides of the bag do not wrap around the pad and the pad is not exposed. The pad slips into a sleeve on the underside the bag. To get additional insulation next to my body (which is where I think is where it would do most good...??), I would need to cut it to the same size as the pad and slip it into the sleeve on top of the pad.

I only felt coolness underneath me - not all over - which is why I think I need more insulation under me. But you make a good point about the extra space in the bag when compared to the Marmot. I will have my down jacket with me and I could use that and other clothing, if necessary to fill up the space.

Thanks to everyone for the help. )