cold and miserable

[ekeverette]

my last section hike in sept./11 was good, but it was wet! i've got plenty of energy and motivation, but when i came out that night,i was wipped.... thats the only thing that concerns me..... wet and cold..... getting up in the morning and putting on those cold ass clothes... that's where the 2000 mile folks have the word of experince.... i quess you just have to buck up and take the pain, take it in the moment and keep on going... got alot of respect for the 2000, mile folks.

[10-K]

Been there.

Bottom line is that you just do it. It really, really helps to have something warm and dry to change into to make yourself as comfortable as possible during the night. A nice dinner and a full belly helps too. I really like laying in my bag, all warm and dry listening to the wind howl and rain beating against my tent.

Start the next morning eating breakfast in a warm bag, then rolling over and getting another 30 minute snooze in and then bite the bullet and get on the trail. Worse part is the heavy, wet tent.

[CrumbSnatcher]

you kinda get used to hanging your shirts,socks,etc.. during a thruhike, then later on up north, its later in the year & stuff don't dry as well, if at all. you'd see people pulling stuff off the clothes line thats colder and wetter than when they hung it up the night before. many times i climbed right into my sleeping bag with damp clothes on, all slimmy and wet, maybe not the most comfortable feeling for a liitle while, but then when i would wake up in the morning with my clothes all nice and toasty and completely dry, watching others throw on wet stuff

[Wobegon]

Yeah, towards the end of my thru-hike I rarely hung stuff up, especially if there was moisture in the air outside, because it really wouldn't dry at all and would just be cold and wet as opposed to warm and wet put away or maybe even dry if warmed inside my bag.

[Papa D]

If you are not sleeping with a hot water bottle, you are missing out -- here is my basic winter formula:

zero degree rated western mountaineering down bag (mine is a women's since I'm only 5'7)
single hubba tent - yes, even in 1' of snow, it's good to go
pillow made of down jacket and / or fleece (in stuff bag from sleeping bag)
eat a good meal with carbs - like potatoes and tuna fish or pasta dish
pee
boil water and fill nalgene - sleep with the hot water bottle - should be warmish - even 7-8 hours later
drink coffee
hike
eat
drink liquor
repeat

[Sarcasm the elf]

my last section hike in sept./11 was good, but it was wet! i've got plenty of energy and motivation, but when i came out that night,i was wipped.... thats the only thing that concerns me..... wet and cold..... getting up in the morning and putting on those cold ass clothes... that's where the 2000 mile folks have the word of experince.... i quess you just have to buck up and take the pain, take it in the moment and keep on going... got alot of respect for the 2000, mile folks.

I don't claim to be anything close to a 2000 miler or an expert, but I've been getting into winter camping the past couple of years and here's what I've figured out that works for me so far.

1) Keep your bag dry at all costs
2) Have a separate set of dry cloths to sleep in, as you said put your cold ass hiking cloths back on in the morning, it's worth it in order to keep your sleeping cloths dry.
3) If it's below freezing, make sure you have enough ground pad insulation, this is just as important as having the right sleeping bag. This can be as simple as doubling up and bringing a second foam pad.
4) Plan it out so that you get things ready at night and can break camp as easily as possible in the morning, minimize the time between when you get out of your bag and when you get on the trail. Basically suck it up and get hiking as soon as you can, it sucks to get started, but once you're on the trail and moving everything gets better. Postpone anything you can skip such as breakfast and any hygiene related chores, they are miserable to do while you are half awake and freezing. Instead hike a mile or two and then take a break, eat and do anything you may have put off.

[BrianLe]

"... minimize the time between when you get out of your bag and when you get on the trail."

Ditto. And if you eat a cold breakfast, you don't need to put off breakfast, just eat it with your lower body still in the sleeping bag. Put on the wet stuff as late as you can, get moving as quickly as you can after that, and soon (enough) body heat will warm up those "cold ass clothes".

You can, of course, cheat on occasion: in particular, if you're pretty sure you'll be getting in to town before the end of the day, no need to put on the wet clothes that morning. And on the AT, trail towns come more frequently. This, btw, is one really great advantage to those that aren't on a really tight budget --- a trail town at the end of a cold & wet day.

One other very nice thing about the AT is that for much of the trip, it didn't get that cold --- for me at least, and I don't think my year was all that unusual in that regard. Cold and wet is quite a bit different than just ... wet. I'd never been a fan of pack covers before the AT, favoring a poncho instead, but on the AT it was often warm enough yet wet that I liked having a pack cover while wearing no "body cover" (rain gear).

Lots of debate can be triggered by the idea of sleeping in wet clothes; I've done this sometimes, and not others, it's a sort of situational thing.
I've never used the "hot water bottle" trick, and for me personally at least, it seems like more hassle than it would be worth, and I had some pretty low temps starting the AT in late Feb last year. Each to their own!

[garlic08]

"... minimize the time between when you get out of your bag and when you get on the trail."

Ditto. And if you eat a cold breakfast, you don't need to put off breakfast, just eat it with your lower body still in the sleeping bag. Put on the wet stuff as late as you can, get moving as quickly as you can after that, and soon (enough) body heat will warm up those "cold ass clothes"...

Ditto this again. If you can get your morning routine down to a few bites of poptart or fig newton, shoving your bag and tent in your pack, and putting on the wet clothes all in ten minutes or so, the morning isn't so awful.

...Lots of debate can be triggered by the idea of sleeping in wet clothes; I've done this sometimes, and not others, it's a sort of situational thing....

I'll only do this for a thin pair of socks or gloves or hat in the usual humid AT conditions. In drier conditions on Western hikes, I've successfully dried out fleece garments. I definitely agree, it's very situational and only for those who understand where the moisture is going to go and can control it. You do NOT want that moisture to end up staying in your bag insulation--it must be able to get into drier relative humidity air and get ventilated out of the tent. If it's foggy, it's not going to go anywhere and you should not attempt it. But it's amazing how nice a dry pair of sock or gloves feels on a damp 35 degree morning.

...One other very nice thing about the AT is that for much of the trip, it didn't get that cold --- for me at least, and I don't think my year was all that unusual in that regard...

I read about your close call with hypothermia in your CDT journal. I nodded in understanding while reading it and you handled it very well. Events like that make the AT seem pretty mild. But I also learned on my AT thru to not underestimate the weather in the Southern Appalachians in late spring. Because of my experiences in harsher weather, I was able to keep going comfortably, but it was touch and go in a couple of late snow storms. And I was pretty much alone on the trail--like you said about trail towns, the nice thing about the AT is you can bail out within a day or two of almost anywhere.

[Wise Old Owl]

This reminds me of a kitty cat before it gets wet in a bath. - This too shall pass.

[shelterbuilder]

I'm not a 2000 miler yet, but I've already slept with my "wrung-out" socks on my chest overnight - they tend to be "dry-ish" in the AM, and that does help with not having to jam your feet into completely cold, wet boots (yeah, it doesn't last long, but....).

Has anyone ever tired sleeping with their clothes placed in an oversized plastic bag (inside the sleeping bag) that's VENTED to the outside? I suspect that your body heat might be enough to drive the moisture out of a bag that's open on one end...but the plastic could be annoying, depending upon where/how you vent it (maybe less so if vented through a foot-end zipper).

Just thinkin' out loud....

[Wise Old Owl]

Part about getting changed for bed it allow sweat to dry from the clothing.... and would you not make your bag funky from additional dirt?

Wait - I am not talking about visible dirt, I am talking about dust - skin cells and other stuff that falls off the body. The yucky part we never talk about.

[BrianLe]

"But I also learned on my AT thru to not underestimate the weather in the Southern Appalachians in late spring."

Thanks, Garlic. I definitely don't underestimate the AT for cold; the coldest nights I've spent anywhere but perhaps straight up winter camping were in Georgia and NC/TN in March last year!

shelterbuilder wrote:

"Has anyone ever tired sleeping with their clothes placed in an oversized plastic bag (inside the sleeping bag) that's VENTED to the outside?"

I wouldn't be optimistic about this. I doubt my sleeping self would succeed at keeping the plastic bag positioned correctly to vent while simultaneously keeping the sleeping bag zipped up tight enough for me to stay warm (which often is full on "mummy mode", just a part of the face exposed). Also, the plastic bag would tend to be held closed just by the geometry of the situation, so I wonder how much venting could occur anyway. And as Garlic pointed out, it depends on relative humidity --- and if there's a good enough delta in that, heck, smaller items (socks) I could just hang up inside my tent overnight. And when the ambient air is pretty dry anyway, I'm less concerned about getting a bit more moisture into my sleeping bag (some always comes off of our bodies anyway).

But please don't take my hasty reaction as discouraging; great ideas are often met with derision and skepticism, so if you're at all inclined, give it a try and report back please!

[Tipi Walter]

you kinda get used to hanging your shirts,socks,etc.. during a thruhike, then later on up north, its later in the year & stuff don't dry as well, if at all. you'd see people pulling stuff off the clothes line thats colder and wetter than when they hung it up the night before. many times i climbed right into my sleeping bag with damp clothes on, all slimmy and wet, maybe not the most comfortable feeling for a liitle while, but then when i would wake up in the morning with my clothes all nice and toasty and completely dry, watching others throw on wet stuff

I agree with garlic08 on this one: "You do NOT want that moisture to end up staying in your bag insulation". I never crawl into my nice down bag with anything but dry clothing, no matter what.

I don't claim to be anything close to a 2000 miler or an expert, but I've been getting into winter camping the past couple of years and here's what I've figured out that works for me so far.

1) Keep your bag dry at all costs
2) Have a separate set of dry cloths to sleep in, as you said put your cold ass hiking cloths back on in the morning, it's worth it in order to keep your sleeping cloths dry.
3) If it's below freezing, make sure you have enough ground pad insulation, this is just as important as having the right sleeping bag. This can be as simple as doubling up and bringing a second foam pad.
4) Plan it out so that you get things ready at night and can break camp as easily as possible in the morning, minimize the time between when you get out of your bag and when you get on the trail. Basically suck it up and get hiking as soon as you can, it sucks to get started, but once you're on the trail and moving everything gets better. Postpone anything you can skip such as breakfast and any hygiene related chores, they are miserable to do while you are half awake and freezing. Instead hike a mile or two and then take a break, eat and do anything you may have put off.

I agree with these points, especially keeping the bag dry at all costs and having a set of dry cloths always. My last several trips have included long periods of nonstop rain---during tropical storm Lee it rained for around 80 hours, and on my last November trip it rained for most of the 20 days and one spell of over 60 hours. The hardest thing about winter backpacking is packing up in the morning and shoving off.

There are a few things that are allowed to get wet: Socks, boots, shorts/underwear, t-shirt, one pair of gloves, baseball cap---AND THAT'S IT!! All these items must be donned the next morning before leaving---and here's where a good rain jacket can save your butt. Slap it over your wet t-shirt and get moving. If it's truly cold---around 10F or 15F---you can leave with more layers under the rain jacket and stop for sweat management, etc, as it's too cold to rain.

[Lemni Skate]

I know some ultra light enthusiasts would never go with a change of clothes, but I always have one set of clothes I keep dry at all costs. In a worst case scenario I can put up my tent, change into warm clothes and wait out the cold and rain in my sleeping bag. I NEVER start hiking again in the dry stuff. If I've got one wet set of clothes and one dry I will hike in the wet. You can't afford to be wet in the cold when you're not moving.

[garlic08]

...Has anyone ever tired sleeping with their clothes placed in an oversized plastic bag (inside the sleeping bag) that's VENTED to the outside?...

Good brainstorming there. Like Gadget says, try it sometime. Closest thing to this I've done is to put wet stuff in a sealed bag inside the sleeping bag. Warm and wet sure is better than cold and wet. More often I'll put the wet clothing under my closed cell foam pad. It's more comfortable that way and stays above freezing at least so they'll stay pliable enough to put back on in the morning. Shoes I sometimes just put under my knees (I'm a back sleeper) outside the bag for the same reason.

[ekeverette]

yea... one thing for sure, and it makes complete common sense... at all cost, i will keep one set of dry clothes for the night, and keep my bag dry... and when putting up my tent in a steady down pour..... which i have'nt had the pleasure of doing yet... will mop up all the wet stuff with my shammie, and crawl my butt into a dry bag....

[CrumbSnatcher]

never owned a down bag
used the hot water bottle trick alot of times in the south, not so much up north
climbing into a bag a little damp is not going to hurt the bag short term,if so no big deal to me.
tents,sleeping bags, hiking poles and such didn't last much me much longer than a thruhike anyways.
always slept with the bag unzipped and blanket style, easier to share the bag with my dog as well. she was wlecome to share the bag wet or not :-)
i used a z-rest, and she had a therma-rest air mattress, but she usually ended up with both :-(

[CrumbSnatcher]

i understand surviving though,being cold and wet with no options would be/is terrible
being cold and wet with only the option of just to start walking is not always fun either :-)
alot of good advice here

[lemon b]

Was kinda chilly this weekend at South Wilcox up here in Ma. Used a 20 degree bag. Got down into the high 20's. I find the trick is keeping one set of undercloths and socks dry for sleeping, plus a wool hat.

[Yahtzee]

Not hostels. Hotels. No joke. Many hot showers. Heaters. Covers. Every third or fourth day in rainy wet weather. Have done many long hikes and never stayed out in the rain for more than a few days at a time.

Hiking in sandals makes hiking in the rain, infinitely better, to the point that the rain itself isn't much of a concern. Plus, you get added bonus of stepping directly into puddles. The great thing about puddles is that they are always the right temperature. When it's cold, the puddles are warm and great to step into, and when it is warm they are cool.

Ground sheets help on wet ground.

Warm hat and gloves cannot be underestimated.

Sleep in your rain gear.

Oversized, thick cotton socks to wear in your sleeping bag. Comfort,warmth and a little bit of home in a ziploc bag.