Why do so many here hate Boy Scouts?

[mister krabs]

Your words, not mine. My point is the military probably sees an advantage in the relationship. Its not just BSA receiving public assistance, and giving nothing in return.

If is your opinion that the Boy Scouts give nothing back to the public, it is my opinion that you are in need of some research to ensure that your opinion is more informed.

[coach lou]

The Boy Scouts of the World hold World Jamborees for troops from countries all over the world, many different religions in the World. The BSA has available many awards and badges for ALL major denominations. Citizenship in the Home, in the community, and in the Nation are not badges that teach hate.

[FlyPaper]

i've read a few pages now. the one thing i've noticed, just about everyone was, or is involved in scouting. why bad mouth them?
i realize some leaders are more experienced in their outdoor manners than others. you too were inexperienced at one time. don't fault the scouts.
i'm a scout leader who found is love for the outdoors, as a youth in scouts. i hike with scouts often, and practice/teach LNT and the outdoor code with everyone.
as far as the homo stuff, we as a troop, don't tell anyone what their preference should be. i'm not gay and could care less about others.
being gay does not mean you're a pedophile. in the same breath, it doesn't mean you're not. that's why we have two deep leadership.

Note: this reply is directed generally at the thread and not so much at this specific post.

My kids are now in scouting, as was I at one point. Adult leaders are not asked their sexual orientation, although the policy states that homosexuals cannot be adult
leaders.

It has been said often that homosexuals are not pedophiles, and this has been repeated so often that political correctness demands we don't think anymore.

I refuse to sacrifice my kids on the alter of political correctness. If a scout leader was openly gay, or even seemed gay, there is NO WAY I would send my kids on
any overnight outing with that adult, regardless of how many other adults are around (unless, perhaps I was one of the adults). Why do I feel this way? Let
me just say, it is experience. And my parents NEVER KNEW. And I haven't told them now because it would do nothing but make them feel guilty.

Somehow, political correctness demands we feel safe sending our boys out with gay men, confident that "homosexuals are not pedophiles". But if you have a daughter,
try to imagine sending them on an overnight trip with heterosexual men you don't know that well (of course there well always be 2 adults at all times, or so they say).
I have a hunch that no one is going to retort "heterosexuals are not pedophiles." I'm sure MOST heterosexual men would not molest a 12 year old girl,
but MOST is not good enough for any daughter of mine. Likewise, perhaps most homosexual men would not molest a young boy, but that's
not good enough for my boys.

[hikerboy57]

how do you tell whether theyre gay? is there a special birthmark? why is anyones sexuality even discussed with prepubescent kids?should straight men be discussing sex with scouts?id be more worried about a straight man teaching hatred.

[Pedaling Fool]

My kids are now in scouting, as was I at one point. Adult leaders are not asked their sexual orientation, although the policy states that homosexuals cannot be adult
leaders.

That's just a sign of the times and it will continue in that direction. Like the don't ask, don't tell policy, one day the scouts will drop their policy against homosexuals. And they should, it's just wrong, but it won't be because of the crazy activists, it'll be from education. We use to think people were gay because of the devil or because of rebellion and other crazy ideas, but science has proved all that wrong. Pedophiles are a completely different issue and I won't go there.

As far as I'm concerned you got the right to not want gays in the scouts around your kids, not my place to have input in that area, but it is wrong.

[FlyPaper]

how do you tell whether theyre gay? is there a special birthmark? why is anyones sexuality even discussed with prepubescent kids?should straight men be discussing sex with scouts?id be more worried about a straight man teaching hatred.

Fortunately, the task at hand is not determining whether they are gay or not, but deciding whether or not I send my boys out with them.
For starters, if they had a boyfriend, that would be a red flag. And fortunately, I am free to err on the side of caution, although I am fully aware
that no system is perfect. But the fact I can't know for certain is not going to diminish my confidence enough to send my boys out with a man
wearing mascara and high heels.

And when did "discussing sexuality" even enter this conversation. Did you think my primary worry is that they would discuss sexuality?
I thought I was clear I was concerned about molestation. Rest assured, if I didn't feel good about sending my boys out on a
scouting trip because I thought an adult leader might be gay, I wouldn't be explaining all the reasons to my kids.

For those of you with daughters, if by chance they were under my care for several days, I can assure you I would not molest them.
But if you, or even a much closer acquaintance didn't feel good about sending their daughters to spend the weekend with me, I
wouldn't feel "hated". I understand a parental protection instinct and I don't confuse that with "hate". And I'm not feeling
guilty about protecting my own children.

[hikerboy57]

would you have let j edgar hoover teach your kids?

[FlyPaper]

That's just a sign of the times and it will continue in that direction. Like the don't ask, don't tell policy, one day the scouts will drop their policy against homosexuals. And they should, it's just wrong, but it won't be because of the crazy activists, it'll be from education. We use to think people were gay because of the devil or because of rebellion and other crazy ideas, but science has proved all that wrong. Pedophiles are a completely different issue and I won't go there.

As far as I'm concerned you got the right to not want gays in the scouts around your kids, not my place to have input in that area, but it is wrong.

You're probably right that the boy scouts will eventually drop this. I can see the direction society is going. But I would contend it is not from education so much
as it is from persistent propaganda. Things are being repeated over and over to the point that even people with little interest in the subject are being
won over. But the strongest counter-arguments are ignored.

For example, as I said above, who would send a 12 year old girl on an overnight trip with a grown man they barely know? If "normal" homosexuality is distinct from
pedophilia, then so is "normal" heterosexuality. Somehow we feel okay when we don't trust grown men with our daughters. But we're supposed to
feel okay when our boys are around homosexual men. By categorizing them as "homosexuals", they are magically exempt from temptations that
we plainly observe in all other people? They would never try to take advantage of an unwilling "partner"? And don't forget, I have experience with this
and I'm not buying it.

Even though I am much older, I find that 18 year old girls can be attractive. Interestingly, I don't see much difference between a girl on her 18th
birthday than a girl that is 17 years and 364 days old. To whatever extent I am "tempted" by them, it is about the same. But magically, if a man
is gay he has some mechanism that prevents him from being attracted to "boys" who are 17 years and 364 days. Hogwash. Although I am not
gay, I am certain they are tempted in ways that other humans are tempted.

Perhaps the boy scouts will change. If they do while my boys are still involved, I would change my association and choose to interact with other
families that don't buy into this PC non-sense.

[Lone Wolf]

wow. can't believe this so-called discussion is still goin'. gays, lesbians, pedophiles, haters, right wing, left wing politics in the GENERAL AT forum no less

[Pedaling Fool]

For example, as I said above, who would send a 12 year old girl on an overnight trip with a grown man they barely know? If "normal" homosexuality is distinct from
pedophilia, then so is "normal" heterosexuality. Somehow we feel okay when we don't trust grown men with our daughters. But we're supposed to
feel okay when our boys are around homosexual men. By categorizing them as "homosexuals", they are magically exempt from temptations that
we plainly observe in all other people? They would never try to take advantage of an unwilling "partner"? And don't forget, I have experience with this
and I'm not buying it.

Even though I am much older, I find that 18 year old girls can be attractive. Interestingly, I don't see much difference between a girl on her 18th
birthday than a girl that is 17 years and 364 days old. To whatever extent I am "tempted" by them, it is about the same. But magically, if a man
is gay he has some mechanism that prevents him from being attracted to "boys" who are 17 years and 364 days. Hogwash. Although I am not
gay, I am certain they are tempted in ways that other humans are tempted.

Perhaps the boy scouts will change. If they do while my boys are still involved, I would change my association and choose to interact with other
families that don't buy into this PC non-sense.

Pedophilia generally involves attraction to children younger than kids of puberty.

[hikerboy57]

Fortunately, the task at hand is not determining whether they are gay or not, but deciding whether or not I send my boys out with them.
For starters, if they had a boyfriend, that would be a red flag. And fortunately, I am free to err on the side of caution, although I am fully aware
that no system is perfect. But the fact I can't know for certain is not going to diminish my confidence enough to send my boys out with a man
wearing mascara and high heels.

And when did "discussing sexuality" even enter this conversation. Did you think my primary worry is that they would discuss sexuality?
I thought I was clear I was concerned about molestation. Rest assured, if I didn't feel good about sending my boys out on a
scouting trip because I thought an adult leader might be gay, I wouldn't be explaining all the reasons to my kids.

For those of you with daughters, if by chance they were under my care for several days, I can assure you I would not molest them.
But if you, or even a much closer acquaintance didn't feel good about sending their daughters to spend the weekend with me, I
wouldn't feel "hated". I understand a parental protection instinct and I don't confuse that with "hate". And I'm not feeling
guilty about protecting my own children.

as a parent you do have the right to who your kids associate with, i just dont understand how you know someone is gay.i dont see too many scout leaders wearing mascara and high heels,even female hikers wearing heels ands makeup, for that matter.there are dysfunctional gays that seem to have a need to proclaim their sexuality to the world, and functioning gays, who you'd never know their sexuality, dont feel the need to bring it up.now bigotry is taught, and shouldnt be.

[FlyPaper]

Pedophilia generally involves attraction to children younger than kids of puberty.

Well you can't have it both ways. We've been taught to believe that sexual orientation is a continuum. I guess it is good and proper,
because it makes a certain group feel better, to assume that pedophilia is binary.

Regardless of my choice of words, no one gets a magic "get out of temptation free card". If a parent would rightfully not feel good
about sending a 12 year old daughter out on a weekend trip with a couple of 35 year old heterosexual men, then there is no difference in
a parent not feeling good about sending a 12 year old boy on a weekend trip with a couple of 35 year old homosexual men. THAT IS NOT HATE!!!
And it is not unreasonable.

[coach lou]

Does anyone have any photos of ANY youth organizations doing service projects on the AT or any other hiking trails, long distance or short!?

[FlyPaper]

as a parent you do have the right to who your kids associate with, i just dont understand how you know someone is gay.i dont see too many scout leaders wearing mascara and high heels,even female hikers wearing heels ands makeup, for that matter.there are dysfunctional gays that seem to have a need to proclaim their sexuality to the world, and functioning gays, who you'd never know their sexuality, dont feel the need to bring it up.now bigotry is taught, and shouldnt be.

Well, how do gays find other gays? (or how did they do it before the Internet?)

[hikerboy57]

Well, how do gays find other gays? (or how did they do it before the Internet?)

im pretty sure they dont join the boy scouts to look for partners.i think it has to do with a special handshake.

[Pedaling Fool]

Regardless of my choice of words, no one gets a magic "get out of temptation free card". If a parent would rightfully not feel good
about sending a 12 year old daughter out on a weekend trip with a couple of 35 year old heterosexual men, then there is no difference in
a parent not feeling good about sending a 12 year old boy on a weekend trip with a couple of 35 year old homosexual men. THAT IS NOT HATE!!!
And it is not unreasonable.

I agree. I was just saying that homosexuality and pedophilia are two completely different things. If a gay man being attracted to a 17 year old boy is an example of pedophilia, then also a straight man that is attracted to a 17 year-old girl is also pedophilia. Pedophilia has nothing to do with the sex of the offender and victim, it's all about the age.

As for a parent not wanting their boy around gays, I've already said that's their business and I'm in no position to tell them otherwise. Wheter it's right or wrong thinking, I agree in most cases it's not hate.

Well you can't have it both ways. We've been taught to believe that sexual orientation is a continuum. I guess it is good and proper,
because it makes a certain group feel better, to assume that pedophilia is binary.

I'm not smart enough to know what you mean here

[FlyPaper]

im pretty sure they dont join the boy scouts to look for partners.i think it has to do with a special handshake.

You're probably right, but perhaps they join for other reasons. Nevertheless, I don't need to prove anyone is gay nor even be convinced they are.
Reasonable suspicion is enough for me to tactfully decline an over-nighter.

Can you answer this: Would you let your 12 year old daughter (if you had one), go on a weekend trip with a couple of 30 something men you barely
knew? If the answer is "no", how do you know they are pedophiles?

(If my last question seems absurd, now you see how your question looks to me).

[hikerboy57]

You're probably right, but perhaps they join for other reasons. Nevertheless, I don't need to prove anyone is gay nor even be convinced they are.
Reasonable suspicion is enough for me to tactfully decline an over-nighter.

Can you answer this: Would you let your 12 year old daughter (if you had one), go on a weekend trip with a couple of 30 something men you barely
knew? If the answer is "no", how do you know they are pedophiles?

(If my last question seems absurd, now you see how your question looks to me).

im a bit more trusting in the sense that ill give most anyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove me otherwise.when it comes to pedophilia, i would hope the organization, whether its the school system, BSA, or any other organization my daughters would associate with, would do a good enough screening job to hopefully weed out the "bad apples" before they were allowed to supervise kids.ive grown up in a very diverse environment, and you learn you cant judge anyone simply by appearance. did i mention hoover?tony curtis?rock hudson?
i would be suspicious of 2 30 yr old men wanting to spend the weekend with a 12 yr girl however.
reasonable suspicion, in my opinion, is a poor way to get along with your fellow man.reminds me of the thread not too long ago about suspicious person at shelter.
I do understand , however, exercising caution with who your daughter associates .

[bobp]

Does anyone have any photos of ANY youth organizations doing service projects on the AT or any other hiking trails, long distance or short!?

Yes, I do. My Cub Scout den used to perform trail maintenance (trimming, blazing, deadfall removal, etc.) on hiking trails at the Pequest WMA in NJ. Now that they are much older, I still get a few of those young men coming back as Boy Scouts to perform the same tasks

[4eyedbuzzard]

There seems to be an assumption by some that while desire may exist across the spectrum of human sexuality, that gay people are more likely to act on their desires than straight people, and more likely to espouse their orientation. The "rules" however, are the same for all. You don't make sexual advances to someone you are either in custody of or responsible for (scouting, schools, churches, etc) or someone that is subordinate to you (workplace). When in a leadership role among children AND young adults such as scouts, you refer them to their parents when asked a question about sex. My experience and instincts tell me that failure to regard these principles occurs with equal frequency regardless of the sexual orientation of the offender.

People have a right to direct and limit their children's associations as they see fit. If they find the mere presence of a gay person as an affront to them and as a threat to their child's development, I can do nothing but pity them. But as a parent I'd rather have my children exposed to a responsible gay person as a role model than an irresponsible straight one. Unfortunately, there is no test of what desires or the degree of proclivity to act on those desires lay in a person's heart. We generally only find out about abuse after it occurs. But most of the sexual abuse of children has come at the hands of those we historically were taught and assumed we could trust - teachers, clergy, scout leaders, etc. And other than the obvious exception of preists, most have been married heterosexuals as they are simply a much higher proportion of the population.