Why do so many here hate Boy Scouts?

[rookiehiker]

I think that Feral Bill is saying that he understands that they have the "right" not to associate with non-religious people and homosexual people if they are a private organization, he just doesn't choose to support discriminatory organizations - he did not say "they were bad" They do foster a culture of non-inclusiveness - and homosexuals and non-religious people are not "fringe groups" - they are a large facet of society and I don't think that as such they should receive any public funding.

As a private group, they only can decide who they want as a member. That's not discriminatory at all, that's their right as a private group. I'm sure not too many private gay groups would accept people as members who do not support gays. Would that also fall under non inclusiveness?

[Papa D]

As a private group, they only can decide who they want as a member. That's not discriminatory at all, that's their right as a private group. I'm sure not too many private gay groups would accept people as members who do not support gays. Would that also fall under non inclusiveness?

It's not their right to discriminate if they take public support - and they do - maybe not in direct funding, but they are clearly and convincingly a publicly supported group. I don't know of any private gay groups - I do know a handful of gay people - I doubt they would give a rip who supported them. They certainly don't get the right to have user fees waived in state parks and other such advantages.

[Lostone]

I don't know where you get your information.


I have never been given a free ride at a state, regional or national park as a boy scout...... We pay the posted fees on park entry and for campsites.

[4eyedbuzzard]

As a private group, they only can decide who they want as a member. That's not discriminatory at all, that's their right as a private group.

Well, it is absolutely discriminatory by definition. There's no argument over that. It's absolutely legal as they are a private organization.

I'm sure not too many private gay groups would accept people as members who do not support gays. Would that also fall under non inclusiveness?

Your example isn't logical.

[Papa D]

I don't know where you get your information.


I have never been given a free ride at a state, regional or national park as a boy scout...... We pay the posted fees on park entry and for campsites.

here are some quickly googled up examples:

The U.S. military hosts the Boy Scouts at Fort A.P. Hill every year in a big, expensive National Jamboree event, which serves in part as recruitment opportunity. Costs for preparing the base for the event, use of the space, etc is all taxpayer funded. The price tag for the Pentagon was close to $10 million from 1997 through 2001, to give a cost example.

The military used to sponsor Scout groups, but that practice was finally ended (amid lawsuits over the Jamboree, I believe, or maybe in the aftermath).

The United Way unallocated fund provided taxpayer funds to the Boy Scouts, although I think this was recently ended, at least by several local United Way chapters.

Public schools allow the Boy Scouts to recruit on school grounds.

The bigger question is WHY they would want to exclude gays and athiests - why THESE groups only? WHY? What does THAT teach the kids involved? That those people are no good? WHAT?

[MuddyWaters]

Sometimes scouts do get advantages. I know they are often allowed to camp and use areas that the general public cannot camp in, all they do is ask permission and its often granted. Also, often given tours of governmental or military facilities and operations that the general public doesnt have access too either.

There is a reason for this. They are well respected by the majority of americans.

[MuddyWaters]

An eagle scout that completes basic training is automatically advanced a rank as well. The reason has to do with the breadth of knowledge from their scouting, they are more advanced than others.

[4eyedbuzzard]

here are some quickly googled up examples:

The U.S. military hosts the Boy Scouts at Fort A.P. Hill every year in a big, expensive National Jamboree event, which serves in part as recruitment opportunity. Costs for preparing the base for the event, use of the space, etc is all taxpayer funded. The price tag for the Pentagon was close to $10 million from 1997 through 2001, to give a cost example.

The military used to sponsor Scout groups, but that practice was finally ended (amid lawsuits over the Jamboree, I believe, or maybe in the aftermath).

The United Way unallocated fund provided taxpayer funds to the Boy Scouts, although I think this was recently ended, at least by several local United Way chapters.

Public schools allow the Boy Scouts to recruit on school grounds.

The bigger question is WHY they would want to exclude gays and athiests - why THESE groups only? WHY? What does THAT teach the kids involved? That those people are no good? WHAT?

You must have missed class. Gays are not clean or morally straight, and atheists don't believe in one of the deities BSA approves of (though that list changes back and forth - ask the Unitarians and Wiccans and Buddhists and Taoists and . . .). You must pay more attention if you wish to receive a passing grade.

[Papa D]

Sometimes scouts do get advantages. I know they are often allowed to camp and use areas that the general public cannot camp in, all they do is ask permission and its often granted. Also, often given tours of governmental or military facilities and operations that the general public doesnt have access too either.

There is a reason for this. They are well respected by the majority of americans.

what does this mean? so what? the law says they can't discriminate if they get public support, period. Currently, they are holding on to their discriminatory ways but things are changing and support is eroding. Go to this website and see for yourself: www.scoutingforall.org

[Papa D]

You must have missed class. Gays are not clean or morally straight, and atheists don't believe in one of the deities BSA approves of (though that list changes back and forth - ask the Unitarians and Wiccans and Buddhists and Taoists and . . .). You must pay more attention if you wish to receive a passing grade.

Oh, I guess I missed that - good point 4EB. They should just publish a list of approved deities: Wotan, Thor, Zeus, Apollo, I like the god of storms and weather: Pihassassa

here are some more:

• A'as - god of wisdom, derived from the Mesopotamian god Enki
• Alalus - primordial entity
• Arinna - sun goddess and consort of Tarhunt
• Arinniti - sun goddess, possibly another name for Arinna
• Arma - minor moon god
• Aruna, god of the sea and son of Kamrusepa
• Aserdus - goddess of fertility and wife of Elkunirsa
• Elkunirsa - creator god and husband of Aserdus
• Ellel - god of the sky and protector of oaths
• Halki - god of grain
• Hannahannah - mother goddess
• Hanwasuit - goddess of sovereignty
• Hasameli - god of metalworkers and craftsmen
• Hazzi - god of the mountains and oaths
• Hutena - goddesses of fate, similar to the Moirai
• Inara - goddess of the wild animals of the steppe
• Ishara - goddess of oaths and love
• Istanu - god of the sun and of judgement
• Jarri - god of plague and pestilence
• Kamrusepa - goddess of healing, medicine and magic
• Kaskuh - god of the moon
• Khipa - tutelary deity
• Lelwani - goddess of the underworld
• Pirwa - deity of uncertain nature
• Rundas - god of the hunt and good fortune
• Sandas - lion god
• Sarruma - god of the mountains, son of Teshub and Hebat
• Šauška - goddess of fertility, war and healing
• Sutekh - weather god, possibly another name for Teshub
• Telepinu - god of farming
• Teshub - god of the sky, weather and storms
• Tilla - bull god
• Upelluri - god of dreaming
• Wurrukatte - god of war
• Zababa - god of war, possibly another name for Wurrukatte

[Cuffs]

Stats?? Here's your stats. Take your time. Read the whole thing. Word for word.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm

[Don H]

here are some quickly googled up examples:

The U.S. military hosts the Boy Scouts at Fort A.P. Hill every year in a big, expensive National Jamboree event, which serves in part as recruitment opportunity. Costs for preparing the base for the event, use of the space, etc is all taxpayer funded. The price tag for the Pentagon was close to $10 million from 1997 through 2001, to giv"e a cost example.

The jamboree is held every 4 years, not every year. It will now be held at the new BSA owned 11,000 acre Summit facility in WV. BSA had invested millions in infrastructure at the AP Hill site over the last several (8) jamborees. "since the Jamboree first began being held at Fort A.P. Hill in 1981, the BSA has invested an estimated $5.6 million (as of '05) in improvements to the installation" http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/religiousdiscrimination/boyscout_appeal.pdf

As far as special privileges to camp, I have paid to camp in "Youth Group" areas open to any group (church, GSA etc.).

[prain4u]

Inclusion and diversity are SOMETIMES not always the best (or only) solution (IMHO). I believe that individuals--and society--can actually BENEFIT from having organizations and places--where exclusivity and "sameness" are celebrated. Sometimes, people simply have a need--or a strong yearning--to be with people who look and act "just like them" (or being with people who have similar views, philosophies and values).

I believe there is a much needed place for groups/places such as all-female (or all-male) schools and colleges. Congress has the "Congressional Black Caucus"--an exclusive group which meets on public property and utilize some public resources. Alcoholics Anonymous has open meetings--which are open to all persons--but also has closed meetings which are restricted to those individuals who have "a desire to stop drinking". The "Race for the Cure" is a worldwide fundraising organization to help fight breast cancer. Approximately half of their fundraising events exclude males from being runners/walkers. (Yet, they too sometimes hold events on public property). The U.S. Constitution bars people who are under certain ages from serving as President, Senators, and Members of the House of Representatives. The Presidency is not open to foreign-born individuals.

I don't think that too many people would advocate that the NAACP be required to open their membership and leadership positions to openly practicing members of the Ku Klux Klan. Few would argue that the local Islamic mosque should be required to hire Atheists, Christians or Jews as their spiritual leaders. Public rallies, being held in favor of same-sex marriage, should not be required to share their same microphone and sound system with (and give equal time to) conservative, fundamentalist Christian pastors--all in the name of inclusivity and diversity. Being diverse and inclusive isn't always the best solution. Sometimes, like-minded people need a place and a time to celebrate their uniqueness and to express their shared values and philosophies.

The Boy Scouts of America fall into this category. They are a private organization that has some unique philosophies and values. The also have some exclusive membership requirements. That's O.K. They have a legal right to be exlcusive and not as diverse as some people would like. They have a Constitutionally guaranteed freedom to have beliefs and values which everyone does not agree with. People should be permitted to Live Their Own Lives and Hike Your Own Hike. We are a stranger society when we give people the time and space to celebrate their uniqueness and their different-ness. The push for radical diversity and an insistence upon mandatory inclusivity--tends to diminish the strength which comes when we allow like-minded people to be exclusive and permit people to have times when they associate with only people who are similar to themselves.

An entire orchestra sounds great and can perform some wonderful music. However, sometimes, the violin players need to spend time with just the other violin players--in order to become the best individual violin players that they can possibly be and in order to make the violin section the best possible violin section. THEN--when the entire, diverse, orchestra comes back together--you can have something truly great. The "whole" is strengthened--because the different sections of the orchestra spend some time celebrating their uniqueness--away from the other sections of the orchestra.

The same is true with society. You can't have a great--and truly diverse and inclusive--society, if the different "components" of that society don't have times and a places where they can celebrate and nurture their uniqueness.

[BlackCloud]

Blackcloud. I agree with everything you say. What part of my post do you find offensive?

You said the BSA doesn't give back in that they give nothing in return for public assistance. They're all about teaching community service, giving back, being productive. Am I misreading your intent?

[jesse]

You said the BSA doesn't give back in that they give nothing in return for public assistance. They're all about teaching community service, giving back, being productive. Am I misreading your intent?

Yes. Where did I say that?

[moytoy]

'The only problem with Boy Scouts is, there aren't enough of them." Will Rogers

[hikerboy57]

that was ignorant reply HB - you are poking a finger and that won't work. Can you find a better way to get your positive idea across....


I say that because your posts are geting the short attention span theater and folks are mis-reading the post and your attitude.

I apologoze. my posts are almost always those of inclusion and finding common ground.My intention is never to offend although i will speak my mind.and the usmc bumber sticker i mentioned is totally out of line with who i am(or who id like to be ,anyway.)I support scouting and any other activity that exposes kids to the outdoors and will simply state that regardless of race , religion or political slant, there are simply good and bad people in the world, and its sometimes difficult to judge whos who.

[Papa D]

Stats?? Here's your stats. Take your time. Read the whole thing. Word for word.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/Articles/000,002.htm

This is also off topic (both of us) - this is supposed to be about the BSA and the trail.

[coach lou]

I do love stepping aside and letting a troop pass by, watching the assortment of young hikers, begged and borrowed gear hanging off packs that look like "The Beverly Hillbillys" truck!

[Don H]

"this is supposed to be about the BSA and the trail."
Well that's what it was suppose to be but some of you would rather talk about all this other stuff that has nothing to do with my OP which by now is totally forgotten.

"I do love stepping aside and letting a troop pass by, watching the assortment of young hikers, begged and borrowed gear hanging off packs"
Thant was me in '69!