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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by pervy_sage View Post
    Take a look at Supreme Court case - Good News Club v. Milford Central School (my alma mater btw) in regard to public facilities and use. If I am reading it correctly, it is a matter of viewpoint discrimination (Freedom of speech clause - first amendment) vs subject discrimination (establishment clause - first amendment).

    If the folks in the shelter were speaking about current events in a religious context relative to their faith, then it would have been covered under free speech.

    An outright sermon or practicing of an organized religious ritual (like group prayer) in a publicly funded facility violates the establishment clause, and the OP would have been well within his rights to object.

    What most people get confused or pissed off about and misinterpret as government repressing religion is actually the government preventing any one religion from gaming the system. The constitutional system is obligated by the constitution itself to uphold freedom of religion, but to not take a position nor expend public resources that benefits any religious group over another. In essence equal protection and equal treatment under the law.

    But I'm no lawyer.
    BTW, I'm not familar with the case you cited above, but I did a quick seach of it. While I didn't read the entire thing, I don't think it applies at all in this case. It does seem to be a case of religious indoctrination in a school. Here's an excerpt:


    In response to a letter submitted by the Club's counsel, Milford's attorney requested information to clarify the nature of the Club's activities. The Club sent a set of materials used or distributed at the meetings and the following description of its meeting:
    "The Club opens its session with Ms. Fournier taking attendance. As she calls a child's name, if the child recites a Bible verse the child receives a treat. After attendance, the Club sings songs. Next Club members engage in games that involve, inter alia, learning Bible verses. Ms. Fournier then relates a Bible story and explains how it applies to Club members' lives. The Club closes with prayer. Finally, Ms. Fournier distributes treats and the Bible verses for memorization." App. in No. 98-9494 (CA2), at A-30.
    McGruder and Milford's attorney reviewed the materials and concluded that "the kinds of activities proposed to be 104*104 engaged in by the Good News Club were not a discussion of secular subjects such as child rearing, development of character and development of morals from a religious perspective, but were in fact the equivalent of religious instruction itself." Id., at A-25. In February 1997, the Milford Board of Education adopted a resolution rejecting the Club's request to use Milford's facilities "for the purpose of conducting religious instruction and Bible study." Id., at A-56.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinker;1323238
    Atheists should be thankful that [I
    the current crop of Christians[/I] do not subscribe to physical force to "convert" their adversaries.
    Tell that to the families of murdered and maimed health care workers shot and bombed by Christian terrorist.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by TD55 View Post
    Tell that to the families of murdered and maimed health care workers shot and bombed by Christian terrorist.
    Atheists, agnostics, other religious groups, etc. don't shoot or bomb people?

    Why don't we just hate everyone?

    No. Why don't we just love everyone, even our enemies?

    Why do we take the exception and hold it out before the world as the rule?

    This is the mark of someone with an agenda posing as a moderate.

    Do you hate drug lords as much as the Lord of the Universe?

    Someone who kills in the name of Christ will end up with the same fate as one who kills those who love His name.
    As I live, declares the Lord God, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn back from his way and live. Ezekiel 33:11

  4. #84
    Registered User pervy_sage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john gault View Post
    BTW, I'm not familar with the case you cited above, but I did a quick seach of it. While I didn't read the entire thing, I don't think it applies at all in this case. It does seem to be a case of religious indoctrination in a school...
    I would encourage you read the whole thing, including both the majority opinion and the dissenting opinions, then you would see why I brought it up. It is not exactly the same, but it has info on precedent regarding use of public facilities by religious organizations, and on the distinctions between upholding the freedom of speech clause argument for the GNC, and the very relevant (yet frequently ignored) establishment clause (aka separation of church and state) argued by the school.

    It basically boiled down to the kind of speech occuring, with the court deciding that the speech was religious in nature (viewpoint discrimination), but not religious instruction (subject discrimination - i.e. sermon, ritual, etc.), therefore covered under the free speech clause.

    The good stuff IMO is actually in the dissenting opinion.

    In the case of the OP post, it is a matter of religious instruction (sermon) vs having a faith based discussion. If it was the later, then no harm no foul, and he might have benefited all if he stayed to represent and gain insight, with their blessing of course.

    If it were the former, then following the advice of another post, taking the leader aside and mentioning the issues, would be more appropriate if not wholly effective. Attempt to educate, stand your ground, then if no mutual remedy is found, be on your way and report to authorities the nature of the incident and let them deal, thus fulfilling your responsibility as a citizen. If it really bakes your biscuits, then you can call whatever civil liberties organization or liberal press group that might want to make hay over your spoiled hike.

    In regard to other posts speaking of war on religion, that is hokum. Any removal of religion from public spaces is actually upholding the law. Something the Christian majority has managed to prevent and postpone since the Constitution was signed.

    It is like everyone driving over the speed limit, and the white cops only pulling over the black folk. But then when the police force becomes more diverse, the white folk start to get pulled over more and start screaming cuz the cops are harassing them (which is hilarious in its own right). Except the cops aren't harassing. They are just attempting to uphold the law equally, like they are supposed to do. (and yes, I know it is still not equal, so no comments on the example please)

    The case I cited is testament to that, with freedom of religious speech being upheld in an appropriate manor relative to the establishment clause.
    "A frog in a well does not know the great ocean" - Japanese Proverb

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  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by TD55 View Post
    I'd say a law was broken and the OP had one of his constitutional rights violated. Shelters are on Federal lands or at least on lands under control of the Federal Government. The group conducted a religious ceremony and put the OP in the position that he had to leave the shelter or be present during this ceremony. The OP was there for the structures intended purpose. The group used it as a place of worship. So, besides being rude and ignoring request by AT managers to keep groups limited to 10 persons, they forced their religious beliefs and worship on a person not of their faith.
    I disagree here...we have freedom of religion not freedom from religion. For the life of me I can't figure out how freedom of religion has turned into preventing people from exercising their religion. As long as the OP was free to leave his rights were not violated. Someone else saying a prayer does not violate your rights as long as you aren't forced to pray with them. Seems to me the first and foremost place you ought to be able to exercise your rights should be on federal property and in federal buildings.

    Lets look at exactly what the first amendment says about religion:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
    So far as I can see, Congress has never tried to establish a religion. What these people were doing in this shelter was freely exercising their religion, and Congress is expressly forbidden from making a law prohibiting that. Freedom of speech applies here, as well as the right of the people to peaceably assemble. Now, I wasn't there, the OP might argue the 'peaceably' part if the kids were getting rowdy.

  6. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by TD55 View Post
    No, but our courts, including the Supreme Court has ruled that even praying in schools is not allowed. People at government facilities are not supposed to be subjected religious worship and ceremonies.
    What the courts have ruled is that a teacher cannot lead the prayer...as an agent of the government, the teacher would be establishing religion. What we've mostly seen is the ACLU filing a bunch of frivolous lawsuits and bullying people into complying with their demands. Most small town schools do not have the financial resources to fight these cases so they buckle under pressure...its easier to change policy than to fight it out.

    Someone else praying in front of you does not violate your rights, but having someone tell you that you can't pray certainly does.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by TD55 View Post
    Just saying that if you show up at a shelter and some religious stuff is going on, or if some group shows up and wants to conduct a ceremony, you are not obligated in any way to show respect or be polite.

    This statement I'll agree with. You have every right to exercise your first amendment rights as well.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by TD55 View Post
    You are right HikerMom, and that is not what they would be arrested for. They would be told that they were creating a disturbance to others not involved with their group and to stop. If they di not, they would be asked again and warned that they could face arrest. If they continued they would be arrested for disturbing the peace, failing to obey a LEO etc.
    Now that makes sense to me. I can totally understand that... no prob. How on earth do we keep authorized people around to make sure any kind of disturbance, like this and others, is addressed and handled in the proper way as you, so well, described? Well, I already know the answer to that question :/ We can't and therefore we don't. So it boils down to all people being considerate of others around them, while sharing a public space. (AT shelter) Some people aren't so thoughtful. That's why the one that posted had to vent, when he got home. :/ Thanks TD55, I got it.

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by TD55 View Post
    I think a hiker would have every right to question who the group was and to ask to see the government issued permit.
    First amendment doesn't say anything about a 'government issued permit.' A permit would be akin to establishing a religion, and they are expressly forbidden from doing that. No permit is required. This country was founded upon inalienable rights. Which means they exist whether they are honored or not. You can't issue a permit for inalienable rights. They just exist.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    What the courts have ruled is that a teacher cannot lead the prayer...as an agent of the government, the teacher would be establishing religion. What we've mostly seen is the ACLU filing a bunch of frivolous lawsuits and bullying people into complying with their demands. Most small town schools do not have the financial resources to fight these cases so they buckle under pressure...its easier to change policy than to fight it out.

    Someone else praying in front of you does not violate your rights, but having someone tell you that you can't pray certainly does.
    What happened here (Alabama) was that at the beginning of each home football game at one of the highschools they would lead the crowd in the Lord's Prayer over the PA system. Well someone objected to that and they had to stop doing it. They switched it to a moment of silence and the crowd took it upon themselves to recite the Lord's Prayer. They are not using the public PA system anymore and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
    "Hiking is as close to God as you can get without going to Church." - BobbyJo Sargent aka milkman Sometimes it's nice to take a long walk in THE FOG.

  11. #91
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    Hmmm...

    I went to bed last night and there were 16 replies, got back to the house just now and there were five pages of replies. I was momentarily puzzled, but then I saw the word religion in the subsequent t replies and lost all interest by page two. Did anything get resolved in pages three through five, or was it just the usual political/religious banter?
    Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyline View Post
    There are in fact plenty of "Christian" purists who sincerely believe the USA was founded by and for Christianity, thus making Christianity an "official" religion we all must adhere to. They have power, and when others point out the fallacy of their claims they are labelled hateful and bigoted.
    No serious historian would argue that the United States was founded as a "christian nation." Anyone who has studied it knows that most of the founders were not even christians. It bugs me every time I hear that "christian nation" crap.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm the elf View Post
    Hmmm...

    I went to bed last night and there were 16 replies, got back to the house just now and there were five pages of replies. I was momentarily puzzled, but then I saw the word religion in the subsequent t replies and lost all interest by page two. Did anything get resolved in pages three through five, or was it just the usual political/religious banter?
    Winds, you want to field this one, I think it requires that special touch that only you seem to provide.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    First amendment doesn't say anything about a 'government issued permit.' A permit would be akin to establishing a religion, and they are expressly forbidden from doing that. No permit is required. This country was founded upon inalienable rights. Which means they exist whether they are honored or not. You can't issue a permit for inalienable rights. They just exist.

    I sense that you and I butter our bread on different sides but I have read your posts and more or less agree with what you say (except for the ACLU suits frivolity). I will make the point that there are legally established limits with good precedence to all of our "inalienable rights" take free speech for example, you can't yell "FIRE" in a restaurant and claim that it is free speech - you will be arrested for inciting a riot. Law is all about where your rights end and other's begin. I could argue that eating pot brownies is "life liberty and pursuit of happiness" but (in most states), I'll still get arrested. People in this country are winning the battle against smokers (and second hand smoke). Where your rights end and another's begin are interesting and tricky questions.

    Now, you bring up the issue of permits. I know of no permit that is obtainable to preach in trail shelters but you DO have to have a forest service permit to run a commercial activity in the forest. If these folks were paying "guides or leaders" (they were probably volunteers) they might have needed a Forest Service Permit or if they had more than 75 people (non-paying) the way I read it. This link will take you to the proper U.S. Forest Service page:

    http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fs...cial%20Permits

    I think that the larger point being overlooked in all of this is that this giant church group was not using good trail etiquette and were clearly being inconsiderate to the OP. This is really a thread about being considerate more than it is about applicable law - having the law enforced in a trail shelter would be pretty hard - whatever law is being broken

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronk View Post
    First amendment doesn't say anything about a 'government issued permit.' A permit would be akin to establishing a religion, and they are expressly forbidden from doing that. No permit is required. This country was founded upon inalienable rights. Which means they exist whether they are honored or not. You can't issue a permit for inalienable rights. They just exist.

    ..............to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,..................

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. <emphasis added>

    "Among" these, not "these are the only ones".


    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm the elf View Post
    Hmmm...

    I went to bed last night and there were 16 replies, got back to the house just now and there were five pages of replies. I was momentarily puzzled, but then I saw the word religion in the subsequent t replies and lost all interest by page two. Did anything get resolved in pages three through five, or was it just the usual political/religious banter?
    Same ol', same ol'. Fun to read thru and see the usual suspects.
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    Just because my teeth are showing, does NOT mean I'm smiling.
    Hányszor lennél inkább máshol?

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketsocks View Post
    Winds, you want to field this one, I think it requires that special touch that only you seem to provide.
    Dam, where's a strong "Winds" when you need one.

    Well Elf, it has been entertaining, and I can only add that in the back of my mind, it would seem that an opportunity for a teaching moment was lost...and that is all.

  17. #97
    Registered User pervy_sage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasm the elf View Post
    Hmmm...

    I went to bed last night and there were 16 replies, got back to the house just now and there were five pages of replies. I was momentarily puzzled, but then I saw the word religion in the subsequent t replies and lost all interest by page two. Did anything get resolved in pages three through five, or was it just the usual political/religious banter?

    The usual. Come back later. It should subside after the usual talking points and insults have been exchanged. I forget the blinders fall into place once the "R" word is uttered.
    "A frog in a well does not know the great ocean" - Japanese Proverb

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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by pervy_sage View Post
    The usual. Come back later. It should subside after the usual talking points and insults have been exchanged. I forget the blinders fall into place once the "R" word is uttered.
    "Rocketsocks" !?!?

    "rastraikis" !?!?
    Old Hiker
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  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by pervy_sage View Post
    The usual. Come back later. It should subside after the usual talking points and insults have been exchanged. I forget the blinders fall into place once the "R" word is uttered.
    In days of old, wars were fought for less (R word), come to think of it....they still are......

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Hiker View Post
    "Rocketsocks" !?!?

    "rastraikis" !?!?
    Tou'che......

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