Retort Bags (such as those in bagged tuna)

[Atlee]

Thanks for the extra info Atlee. That price is still tough to swallow being that I've already got a snorkel type vacuum sealer ($150) that uses commercial (cheaper) vacuum bags and my trusty cans for shelf-stable but perishable foods (fruits and veggies mainly, we freeze the meat and have lots of it being that we have a farm). Still, I could see replacing the jar canning for the perishables. An argument could be made to offset the electricity use of the freezers in which we store the bulk of our farm produce. Frozen veggies lose less nutrients since they're only blanched but require energy to keep them cold and edible.

One idea I might try is to plunk out $80-$100 and use an impulse hand sealer like one of these to seal the bags while the snorkel vac holds the vacuum. Assuming I used a long enough bag, I would have the free space between the food and the edge of the (unused) sealing bar. If it works, it would take a lot of bags to eventually negate the $1400 savings between the impulse sealer and the cheapest of the chamber vacs. If I do, I'll post back and let everyone know it can be done.

Hi FamerChef

Everyone buys items for different needs. I have a real aversion to buying anything from China and try to avoid it as much as possible, so my view is a bit tainted.
I looked at the link to DougCare you left, I do not know if those would work or not. What I did learn when trying to make the VacMaster work for my neighbor was that the heat wire on the unit needs to be a crimping wire. The VacMasters have a flat band wire, and Thom at PMG said he could not upgrade it, do the impulse sealers have that too? When a can sealer seals a can the machine crimps the lid. The retorts are similar with crimping the bag and heat sealing at the same time.

Your vacuum sealer is it like the Simbo or Sinbo not sure of the name? I saw those before we bought, but we do enough volume with 5 people, we have done 1300 in the past three years and at least 1000 plus regular bags. I don't think a little unit like your built in China would hold up very well. I only like to buy things one time and hate disposable items I am constantly replacing. I figured I would be looking at replacement of another $150.00 every year. That would be $450.00 by now and another heat sealer it just gets to be to much. Every month there is something that needs to be purchased with a family of 5. I found out long ago for me it works better to buy quality, take care of it and go on to the next item. In the long run it is far cheaper year after year. But hay I drive a 1990 Jeep always the oldest car in a parking lot that is not a show car. LOL But my jeep is in really great shape so why buy new?
We don't have that much space and I wanted something to do it all with one unit that could sit on my counter easily. Maybe your idea will work for you I would just look at your volume verses the equipment.

[FarmerChef]

All good points, Atlee. For our customers we use the Sinbo to seal cut up chicken parts but we use shrink bags for whole birds. These could solve your issue with the chamber being too small for a whole bird.

For our garden produce we mostly freeze. Problem is we fill 2 freezers and have a third for our chicken. When my snorkel vac eventually kicks the bucket if our business volume is high enough to justify it, I might look into the chamber vac.

With regard to the crimping wire, I read that at the vacupack website. They said that flat wire had the highest failure rate. A quick read showed that impulse sealers come with flat wire or round wire. I'm having a hard time visualizing what you refer to as the crimping action on the bag so I'm not sure if round wire would do.

[Atlee]

Round wire sounds similar. When feeling the wire on my unit it has a rounded feel. It would be worth an ask to a distributor that would know the real differences.

Shrink bags? What are those? I am familar with the shrink plastic used for packaging but I have never heard of them for food. Where do you get them? Do you need a vacuum sealer or do they work just like other shrinkwrap with a heat gun? I am thinking larger 5 plus pound roasts or whole chickens I can not fit into my chamber unit.

If you did get a chamber unit for your business, although I can't say enough good about my Minipack MVS20 it sounds like it would be to small for your needs.

[FarmerChef]

Shrink bags are the same kind of plastic bag a store bought chicken comes in. Basically, it's a plastic bag that shrinks when placed in hot (but not boiling) water. In our case, we put the freshly dressed bird into the bag, twist the end up tight and crimp a metal band on. Then we poke a hole over the breast to let the air escape as the bag shrinks. Into the pot it goes where the air bubbles out as it shrinks. We do this fast to keep from cooking the food. Done this way, the presentation is very nice and the chickens have little edible surface area in contact with oxygen so they can be kept very cold in the deep freeze for long periods of time (we've had some we've eaten after a year).

I can probably find enough other uses for an impulse sealer to have a go of it anyway. Just think, you could buy a bag of chips, eat a few, then reseal the bag to prevent them from getting stale!

[Rasty]

All good points, Atlee. For our customers we use the Sinbo to seal cut up chicken parts but we use shrink bags for whole birds. These could solve your issue with the chamber being too small for a whole bird.

For our garden produce we mostly freeze. Problem is we fill 2 freezers and have a third for our chicken. When my snorkel vac eventually kicks the bucket if our business volume is high enough to justify it, I might look into the chamber vac.

With regard to the crimping wire, I read that at the vacupack website. They said that flat wire had the highest failure rate. A quick read showed that impulse sealers come with flat wire or round wire. I'm having a hard time visualizing what you refer to as the crimping action on the bag so I'm not sure if round wire would do.

FarmerChef - Are you planning to sell retort packed food?

[Atlee]

Shrink bags are the same kind of plastic bag a store bought chicken comes in. Basically, it's a plastic bag that shrinks when placed in hot (but not boiling) water. In our case, we put the freshly dressed bird into the bag, twist the end up tight and crimp a metal band on. Then we poke a hole over the breast to let the air escape as the bag shrinks. Into the pot it goes where the air bubbles out as it shrinks. We do this fast to keep from cooking the food. Done this way, the presentation is very nice and the chickens have little edible surface area in contact with oxygen so they can be kept very cold in the deep freeze for long periods of time (we've had some we've eaten after a year).

I can probably find enough other uses for an impulse sealer to have a go of it anyway. Just think, you could buy a bag of chips, eat a few, then reseal the bag to prevent them from getting stale!

Sound like great bags where do you get them from?

Will you vacuum sealer reseal a bag like a chip bag?

[Atlee]

I was at a grocery outlet store today. They had smoked salmon in the exact same retort pouch we use only 16oz. They had a very very wide flat seal on the fill end of the bag. I wonder if on a commercial bases if they use an autoclave instead of pressure canner? If they did there would not be as much stress put on the bag so a flat band seal would work.

[FarmerChef]

FarmerChef - Are you planning to sell retort packed food?

Not really. In order to do that I would need a USDA inspected/certified kitchen and I don't have space in my present home for that, something we intend to fix as soon as we can sell our home and buy proper land for a small farm and potential on-farm butcher facility. Right now, we sell pastured poultry and need to package it in some manner for our customers who don't arrive on processing day to simply pick up their bird from the chill tank and put it in their own bag. The vacuum sealer is used to seal up cut orders and the shrink bags are used to package whole birds, all covered under our small farm poultry processing exemption (i.e. I can't sell more than x birds or process other people's birds, etc.). The retort bags would simply be for our own personal use to save space for canned goods and to feed our hiking habit But I can't justify $1,500 right now for just that.

[FarmerChef]

I was at a grocery outlet store today. They had smoked salmon in the exact same retort pouch we use only 16oz. They had a very very wide flat seal on the fill end of the bag. I wonder if on a commercial bases if they use an autoclave instead of pressure canner? If they did there would not be as much stress put on the bag so a flat band seal would work.

The shrink bags I purchase come from Cornerstone Farm. I like to use them because they don't require that I purchase an entire case of a particular bag size. I can just buy one or two bags at a time. They also sell vacuum bags as well.

My vacuum sealer probably wouldn't reseal a chip bag but the impulse sealer most certainly would. If I can get it to work on retort bags then I can jury rig a retort-grade vacuum sealer. Now if I just had some chocolate bars and duct tape...oh wait, that's McGyver.

[Atlee]

The shrink bags I purchase come from Cornerstone Farm. I like to use them because they don't require that I purchase an entire case of a particular bag size. I can just buy one or two bags at a time. They also sell vacuum bags as well.

My vacuum sealer probably wouldn't reseal a chip bag but the impulse sealer most certainly would. If I can get it to work on retort bags then I can jury rig a retort-grade vacuum sealer. Now if I just had some chocolate bars and duct tape...oh wait, that's McGyver.

Ha! Ha!

Thank you I will look at Cornerstone Farm. Good luck with your McGyver retorts.

[Mag Fhearadhaigh]

Went to find bagged chicken in the grocery store and when I saw the price I thought to myself, "I wonder if I can do this at home myself." I mean, essentially you are pressure canning, just doing it in bags - specifically, retort bags. A quick search of the net revealed it's not so easy to find legit retort bags let alone the question of whether or not my snorkel vac can handle 4 layers of bag instead of the usual 1 for a standard PE bag.

Anyone have any experience using these bags to bag your own chicken, tuna, etc.? If so, how did you seal them and where did you get your bags? Any tips greatly appreciated.

hey there farmerchef...im betting the answer has been had in all these posts (that to be honest, i didnt read all of them.. ...sorry) but if not i hope this is an answer for you (or others) or at the very least help validate whats been said..
Retort Canning... Retort Bags... these are the real ways to store food long term (over mylar) as there are some major differences between the two.. like u mentioned.. store bought food .. uses retort bags, not mylar.. and military MRE's (IMP's here in canada) use it as well, although commercial uses white or silver typically, and the military use green exclusively (not available for anyone else) ...our color for genuine retort bags are gold in color.. retort has much better protection from light and oxygen over mylar.. is much better for liquids (although im sure someone will debate that they have done liquids with mylar) and best of all, you can cook or heat up meals.. (yes cook from raw as well as heat up) right inside the bag WITHOUT risking various chemicals leaching into your food like mylar does.. this is why they use retort instead of mylar.. mylar was never originally intended for food products.. though people do use them anyways...(even i use them for some dry foods/goods, but only on shorter term conditions) to top it all off, retort bags actually do improve shelf life over mylar...
ok thats the good.. now for the bad.. if you want to use retort as they were designed for, in the exact manner they were designed for.. you would typically use a chamber type vacuum sealer.. starting prices for something that actually works, and lasts longer than a half dozen uses? 750-1000 dollars.. average price... 2500-4000k... but those are bottom end commercial units.. and for non vac sealed a heavy duty double sided heat sealer is needed.. much more forgiving prices.. usually starting at around 125-150... and the retort bags themselves.. not as accessible as mylar.. (ie, ebay, amazon and the like usually always have a bunch of people selling mylar.. as do most prepping retailers) infact today i went on just out of curiosity and there were maybe 4 or 5 listings in total, and all from the same person..
now.. all that said and done.. with a little due diligence you can find many sources of "legit" retort bags.. and with a little more hunting you can find AMAZING prices.. usually on par or better than mylar.. ( i just got another order in so im speaking first hand.. and that order was cheaper than any ebay auction listing price per bag.. to the point i was getting probably better than 10 retorts to 1 mylar in comparison) and... in my first adventures with retort bags i was using an old clothing iron, a modified metal cloths hanger and a carved piece of 2X4... sealed up anything and everything i needed to seal more than adequately.. as ghetto as it was, it works well for the budget minded.. and for increasing the longevity... for dry food stuffs.. i simply added oxygen absorbers and/or desiccant's... and just like mylar it can suck out any unwanted oxygen without the need or use of a vac sealer... again, ghetto or budget concious.. but it works..
all in all.. siince my introduction to the realities between mylar and retort.. i havent went back.. and please, dont get me wrong, i really like mylar bags.. but they are more designed for non-edible products.. shirts, pictures, money, jewelry, ammo.. whatever.. but truly werent designed for food... sometimes, just because you can, doesnt mean you should.. ...just sayin

[One Half]

Resurrecting this thread as I just "discovered" retort canning. I started thing about a bunch of things. We already dehydrate and can food but I was looking at MRE heaters and then started wondering about how do they actually make the meals. I am a much better cook than the companies who make MREs and I figured I could make my own.

Kind of a funny sidenote - I have friend who just volunteered to eat MRE's for 21 days for Natick labs. They do some physiological testing before during and after I think. He hasn't found out if he has been accepted as a participant yet.

Anyway, back to Retort canning. $1500 is a LOT to get started. But here's my question. Can I make my own chilis and stews and saucy foods and retort them? Logic says yes. I'm just wondering about the vacuum sealing part of it. How do you handle that? Is there a special setting on the machine to do it? And how much food is really in an 8 ounce pouch? Enough for 1 serving? Or do you need 16 ounces to feed 1 person since it's done by weight?