Heavy Thinking with Tipi Walter

[Stink Bug]

You're right about getting the food load lighter. It's possible if a person is willing to get more organized and not just throw food into a pack, although variety to me is the name of the game when it comes to backpacking food. So, my pack often has apples and grapes and maybe an avocado or a fresh burrito and a fruit smoothie for the first couple days of a butt long trip.

I recently got a TSM 5 tray dehydrator and this morning cooked up a bunch of spaghetti with sauce and it's all in the dryer getting ready for my next trip. Point is, if a person spends considerable time dehydrating at home he'll have a lighter food load. By this I mean everything he likes to eat in a can like chili or beans or soups (tomato soup) or butternut squash soup or what the heck ever can all be dehydrated at home.

One of the benefits of growing my own food (I did mention my backpacking minimalism bleeds over to my regular life ) is that I often have an abundance of wonderful, fresh produce that takes a few minutes of prep to ensure I have nutritious, delicious backpacking meals.

I will agree with your earlier point regarding "Ultralight backpacking can evolve over time as experienced backpackers hone their kit and reduce weight". Heck, that's exactly what I did. I started off hiking the Yorkshire Moors / Dales with my dad, aged 11 with Army surplus gear and, quite honestly it sucked. I had wool pants that itched so badly and when they got wet, as they often did, the crotch hung around my knees. After a stint in the Royal Air Force and backacking in the Artic Circle (Norway and Goose Bay, Canada), Falkland Island and, the hot and sweaty jungles of Belize, I decided that I needed to radically change my philosphy and kit. This wasn't an overnight process and it's been a lot of trial and error. Now though, I'm at a place where I can go out in sub freezing weather (last winter for example I thru-hiked the Laurel Highlands Trail in 3 days with a sub 20lb load with nightime temps below 10*F) and was perfectly comfortable.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a friend who I recently introduced to backpacking and after initially buying 'traditional' gear (packweight was around 30 - 35lb for a 3 night trip) he's bought in to ultralite in a big way. It really does irritate me no end that he spends more time buying lighter gear than he does being out in the woods using the kit he has and honing his outdoor skills. But to say Fast and Light is hysteria is doing the vast majority a great disservice.

Just my 2c worth (adjusted for inflation)...

[Tipi Walter]

But to say Fast and Light is hysteria is doing the vast majority a great disservice.

Just my 2c worth (adjusted for inflation)...

Here's the Fast & Light hysteria in action---not judged as good or bad but proof of the abundance of the Fast & Light mindset LIKE ALIENS OVERTAKING THE WORLD!!

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=69886

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=50644

http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com...FQY5nAodyzgAYA

http://www.ultralightbackpacker.com/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...ght/index.html Pack Less, Be More???

http://www.adventurealan.com/

http://gossamergear.com/ Take Less, Do More????

http://www.ultimate-ultralight-backpacking.com/

http://www.centerwalk.com/

http://onestep4me.tripod.com/

http://www.backpacking.net/

http://www.prolitegear.com/ultralight_backpacking.html

http://litetornado.tripod.com/

http://www.zpacks.com/

http://samh.net/backpacking/

http://www.lightheartgear.com/index....16a8793ce82c46

http://ultralightoutfitters.com/

[Tipi Walter]

Here's the Fast & Light hysteria in action---

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=69886

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=50644

http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com...FQY5nAodyzgAYA

http://www.ultralightbackpacker.com/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...ght/index.html Pack Less, Be More???

http://www.adventurealan.com/

http://gossamergear.com/ Take Less, Do More????

http://www.ultimate-ultralight-backpacking.com/

http://www.centerwalk.com/

http://onestep4me.tripod.com/

http://www.backpacking.net/

http://www.prolitegear.com/ultralight_backpacking.html

http://litetornado.tripod.com/

http://www.zpacks.com/

http://samh.net/backpacking/

http://www.lightheartgear.com/index....16a8793ce82c46

http://ultralightoutfitters.com/

What makes it hysterical? When you google "heavyweight backpacking" and come up with nothing except maybe these---and they're mostly in jest with some good amount of sarcasm.

http://sectionhiker.com/ultralight-b...make-you-soft/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...rphosis_1.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZoKFTDSyUA

http://freeoutdoors.com/blog/hiking/backpacking-tips

http://blackwoodspress.com/blog/5857...ng-gear-items/

[Stink Bug]

Here's the Fast & Light hysteria in action---

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=69886

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...hread_id=50644

http://www.hyperlitemountaingear.com...FQY5nAodyzgAYA

http://www.ultralightbackpacker.com/

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-...ght/index.html Pack Less, Be More???

http://www.adventurealan.com/

http://gossamergear.com/ Take Less, Do More????

http://www.ultimate-ultralight-backpacking.com/

http://www.centerwalk.com/

http://onestep4me.tripod.com/

http://www.backpacking.net/

http://www.prolitegear.com/ultralight_backpacking.html

http://litetornado.tripod.com/

http://www.zpacks.com/

http://samh.net/backpacking/

http://www.lightheartgear.com/index....16a8793ce82c46

http://ultralightoutfitters.com/

Again, I'll respectfully disagree:
hys·te·ri·a

/hɪˈstɛr i ə, -ˈstɪər-/ Show Spelled [hi-ster-ee-uh, -steer-] Show IPA noun 1. an uncontrollable outburst of emotion or fear, often characterized by irrationality, laughter, weeping, etc

Joe, who owns ZPacks, is a Triple Crowner and somebody who I admire and respect an awful lot. The same with Glen from Gossamer Gear. I've bought from both companies and I definitely wasn't brainwashed (but thanks for assuming) or strong-armed in to buying their products. I agree some people take it to the extreme and just buy lightweight gear without perfecting their outdoor skills but I still stand by my point that to call it hysteria is doing the vast majority a disservice. Then again I'm not the one reaching for Aunt Sally's (I think you call them Strawmen over this side of the pond)...

[Rasty]

This would be in jest of heavy weight versus lightweight!

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/show...Load&highlight=

[pyroman53]

Here's one that seems to be dedicated to heavyweight backpacking - very popular and completly in tune with corporate america:
http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin.../ikonboard.cgi?

[Tipi Walter]

Again, I'll respectfully disagree:
hys·te·ri·a

/hɪˈstɛr i ə, -ˈstɪər-/ Show Spelled [hi-ster-ee-uh, -steer-] Show IPA noun 1. an uncontrollable outburst of emotion or fear, often characterized by irrationality, laughter, weeping, etc

Joe, who owns ZPacks, is a Triple Crowner and somebody who I admire and respect an awful lot. The same with Glen from Gossamer Gear. I've bought from both companies and I definitely wasn't brainwashed (but thanks for assuming) or strong-armed in to buying their products. I agree some people take it to the extreme and just buy lightweight gear without perfecting their outdoor skills but I still stand by my point that to call it hysteria is doing the vast majority a disservice. Then again I'm not the one reaching for Aunt Sally's (I think you call them Strawmen over this side of the pond)...

Not attacking individual business owners of course but questioning the overwhelming corporate mandate to hook into the fast and light mindset. It works because it sells. Okay, I get that. But I'm here to say it's possible to backpack and live outdoors with just the opposite mindset, Slow and Heavy. It doesn't sell. Why not? Because most people want to go fast and they can't go fast unless they're light. Ergo they pull either short weekend trips with minimal food weight or they do long trips with frequent resupplies thereby lowering their food weight.

Question---can a backpacker on an "expedition" trip carry 45 lbs of food and still be considered an ULer? Yes, their base weight is still light but what UL pack will hump 45 lbs of food?

[Tipi Walter]

Here's one that seems to be dedicated to heavyweight backpacking - very popular and completly in tune with corporate america:
http://forums.backpacker.com/cgi-bin.../ikonboard.cgi?

I consider this to be Camping as defined by corporate America---in fact RV types call this "camping". Weird, ain't it?

[jeffmeh]

I think we should bear in mind that those posting to this forum are hardly a representative sample of the hiking population. Many are here to discuss and learn about a 2000+ mile trip that offers resupply opportunities every 3-4 days, and that with timing and good luck will not offer too many serious weather challenges. Those conditions allow one to pack relatively lightly without sacrificing safety or too much comfort. So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here.

That said, among the general hiking population, many more dollars are spent on traditional gear than on comparable ultralight gear. There is very little ultralight gear in mainstream stores like REI, EMS, etc.

We are not really doing an apples to apples comparison, when some are going out in deep winter for weeks without resupply, and some are doing temperate weather 3-4 day trips.

I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems.

[Tipi Walter]

I think we should bear in mind that those posting to this forum are hardly a representative sample of the hiking population. Many are here to discuss and learn about a 2000+ mile trip that offers resupply opportunities every 3-4 days, and that with timing and good luck will not offer too many serious weather challenges. Those conditions allow one to pack relatively lightly without sacrificing safety or too much comfort. So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here.

That said, among the general hiking population, many more dollars are spent on traditional gear than on comparable ultralight gear. There is very little ultralight gear in mainstream stores like REI, EMS, etc.

We are not really doing an apples to apples comparison, when some are going out in deep winter for weeks without resupply, and some are doing temperate weather 3-4 day trips.

I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems.

"So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here." Amen, pass the beans and rice.

"I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems."

The first would only be a challenge with the food weight and possibly some extra stuff needed for shelter upgrades for comfort during open bald blizzards as we sit out a storm together in our separate shelters trying to avoid spindrift. More fuel of course and a food weight approaching 45 lbs. Maybe a couple extra pieces of winter clothing.

An AT NOBO attempt for me would not finish in six months as there's no need for a forced march and I am comfy with 7 mile days thereby finishing half the trail in 5 or 6 months. Why not? Heck I'm retired so what's the hurry? If Making the Miles to Maine was my only consideration, well, I'd go much lighter too and resupply every 4 days. My goal though is to enter the woods, any woods, even the Appalachian Trail woods, and not come out until my trip is over. This means carrying however much gear and food I can for the duration. Resupplying every 4 days is not my idea of a "wilderness backpacking trip." I go out to get away from roads and cars and stores and folding money---give me a few good books and some candles and alot of food and sayonatra for 3 weeks.

In fact, the first step out of the car on the first day of a 21 day backpacking trip with a huge pack is the best feeling in the world and the best feeling of the whole trip. Weight is the price of freedom.

[max patch]

I consider this to be Camping as defined by corporate America---in fact RV types call this "camping". Weird, ain't it?

When my kids were young I took them car camping at a state park like my dad used to do to me. I was shocked - shocked!!! - that tent campers like us were like 5% of the people there. The other 95% were in some type of RV or another. Our friendly neighbor invited us over to watch a football game on their big screen tv.

[FarmerChef]

I was shocked when I went on my first cub scout campout to learn what car camping was for the first time. We brought all our hiking gear and were ok but the next trip we brought the twinkly lights, dutch ovens and all manner of heaviness in our F350 dually Now, we have a throwdown challenge to see who can cook the best feast over an open fire.

[MDSection12]

I think we should bear in mind that those posting to this forum are hardly a representative sample of the hiking population. Many are here to discuss and learn about a 2000+ mile trip that offers resupply opportunities every 3-4 days, and that with timing and good luck will not offer too many serious weather challenges. Those conditions allow one to pack relatively lightly without sacrificing safety or too much comfort. So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here.

That said, among the general hiking population, many more dollars are spent on traditional gear than on comparable ultralight gear. There is very little ultralight gear in mainstream stores like REI, EMS, etc.

We are not really doing an apples to apples comparison, when some are going out in deep winter for weeks without resupply, and some are doing temperate weather 3-4 day trips.

I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems.

Great post! Kudos!

I'm new to the site but already I've noticed that the way you thru-hike the AT is not the way you do backcountry backpacking... Very different mindsets. I know this forum isn't limited exclusively to AT topics, but that's what brought us all here I'd imagine. Hardly a representative sample of the population.

[Tipi Walter]

Great post! Kudos!

I'm new to the site but already I've noticed that the way you thru-hike the AT is not the way you do backcountry backpacking... Very different mindsets. I know this forum isn't limited exclusively to AT topics, but that's what brought us all here I'd imagine. Hardly a representative sample of the population.

Show me a decent backpacking forum and I'd go to it. Backpacker.com (the magazine forum) is full of non-trail posts and threads, BackpackingLight.com can get interesting at times but it's the polar opposite of what I do, plus they fixate on the minutiae of cuben fiber and nano grams and is more geared for out West. Trailspace is slow moving as is Sgt Rock's. Bushcraft USA is all about weapons and cordage and knives and steel and stuff with slow moving backpacking threads. It's great if you're into basecamping on a ridgetop in a tipi with a woodstove for 20 years though.

Whiteblaze stays active with many posts and most of them have to do with backpacking the AT along with other trails. Emphasis Other Trails for me.

[jeffmeh]

"So there is a definite bias toward light or ultralight here." Amen, pass the beans and rice.

"I would actually love to hear the ultralight enthusiast's packing list for going on one of Walter's trips, and Walter's packing list for doing an AT NOBO starting in mid-march, with a finish within 6 months. Then we could compare and contrast the approaches when faced with the same problems."

The first would only be a challenge with the food weight and possibly some extra stuff needed for shelter upgrades for comfort during open bald blizzards as we sit out a storm together in our separate shelters trying to avoid spindrift. More fuel of course and a food weight approaching 45 lbs. Maybe a couple extra pieces of winter clothing.

An AT NOBO attempt for me would not finish in six months as there's no need for a forced march and I am comfy with 7 mile days thereby finishing half the trail in 5 or 6 months. Why not? Heck I'm retired so what's the hurry? If Making the Miles to Maine was my only consideration, well, I'd go much lighter too and resupply every 4 days. My goal though is to enter the woods, any woods, even the Appalachian Trail woods, and not come out until my trip is over. This means carrying however much gear and food I can for the duration. Resupplying every 4 days is not my idea of a "wilderness backpacking trip." I go out to get away from roads and cars and stores and folding money---give me a few good books and some candles and alot of food and sayonatra for 3 weeks.

In fact, the first step out of the car on the first day of a 21 day backpacking trip with a huge pack is the best feeling in the world and the best feeling of the whole trip. Weight is the price of freedom.

Thanks Walter. Very reasonable response, and what I expected. Different goals, preferences, conditions, and skill levels drive different gear choices.

I only object to choices that compromise safety given skill levels, or rely on encroaching upon others under not unlikely conditions (e.g., "the weather is nasty, I did not bring a shelter, so give me space at the full shelter"). Outside of that, it's all about HYOH and the subjective theory of value.

[MDSection12]

Show me a decent backpacking forum and I'd go to it. Backpacker.com (the magazine forum) is full of non-trail posts and threads, BackpackingLight.com can get interesting at times but it's the polar opposite of what I do, plus they fixate on the minutiae of cuben fiber and nano grams and is more geared for out West. Trailspace is slow moving as is Sgt Rock's. Bushcraft USA is all about weapons and cordage and knives and steel and stuff with slow moving backpacking threads. It's great if you're into basecamping on a ridgetop in a tipi with a woodstove for 20 years though.

Whiteblaze stays active with many posts and most of them have to do with backpacking the AT along with other trails. Emphasis Other Trails for me.

Well that's usually the case with forums; the guys that are just kind of out there doing it their way aren't trolling the internet for suggestions... The people that join a forum and become active are the ones that are pushing towards some kind of goal. In the case of backpacking that is almost always lightweight. I don't know how many forums you frequent but you kind of have to learn to dismiss the diehards and just take everything with a grain of salt. There's always the guy telling you you must do x or y despite the fact that you've been doing otherwise for years... I mean come on, this is the internet afterall.

Not singling you out or telling you to find a new site, just pointing out that the internet is full of zealots and the casual, more average guys aren't really represented. I take everything here as a learning excercise, but that doesn't mean I'm selling all my gear and buying cuben fiber to replace it any time soon.

[colorado_rob]

In fact, the first step out of the car on the first day of a 21 day backpacking trip with a huge pack is the best feeling in the world and the best feeling of the whole trip. Weight is the price of freedom.

Yes, amen on the first point, well said, but you have the second one exactly backwards. Weight is the bane of freedom (on the trail). You can indeed go nicely lightweight and be totally equipped, even in winter and basically barely notice your pack's weight (well, for 3-4 day trips, at least). I could cite a zillion examples of what I mean, but to what point? "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig" (Robert A. Heinlein, bless his soul).

[Tipi Walter]

There is something called being on the "stupid side of light". I've been there a few times. Shaved my gear down to pure minimum. It was a delight to carry such a small load. On the second day of the Landmannalaugar hike in Iceland the storm hit. 40mph winds blowing heavy rain at 2degrees C. Had just a light raincoat, got drenched. Didn't have enough warm clothes. Dark approached. Passed a monument to an Israeli hiker who had died (in a similar storm, I was later told). Began shivering uncontrollably. Well, I (and 9 others) reached a hut and the caretaker nursed us back to full body temperature. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.

Your story reminds me of a trip I did last January to Huckleberry Knob and into the Snowbirds for several weeks. On top of the mighty Huck there's this white cross memorial to two dead hikers of decades past. But they were not ultralighters.

[OzJacko]

Hey Walter!
You should come over here and hike a few trails.
In the case of the Australian Alps Walking Track you could pick the season and have all the snow you want.
For the Bib Track near me the middle of winter would seem like some summer to you and with water at all the huts you could be "lightweight" even with a fortnights food.

[Tipi Walter]

Hey Walter!
You should come over here and hike a few trails.
In the case of the Australian Alps Walking Track you could pick the season and have all the snow you want.
For the Bib Track near me the middle of winter would seem like some summer to you and with water at all the huts you could be "lightweight" even with a fortnights food.

Thanks for the suggestion.