GPS advice???

[Blister]

Need to purchase a GPS for my trip out west. As much as I would like to take along a voice activated trail guid, hhee, hhee, ha, ha. Instead I'm goin with the lighter version of technology. Any advice?

[tlbj6142]

Don't worry about mapping functions as the backcountry maps don't show enough resolution. So, all you need is an unit that tells you where you are and where you need to go (next waypoint). Used with a good topo map, a 5yo couldn't get lost. GPSr maps work fine for streets, but not the back country.

That said, you can buy the cheapest unit available. Like the the eTrex Yelllow (does not have a PC interface). If you want to spend a few more bucks, I'd get the eTrex Legend (non-Color, I own one of these). It does mapping if you ever want that and also has WAAS support (higher accurracy helps when looking for geocaches, but doesn't mater too much in the back country).

If you want to blow even more money, get the eTrex Legend C. Battery life is longer, it has more memory for road maps, and a few other features that are "cool", but not really needed.

You don't need an altimeter unless you want to track the weather. As the altiutude mode is about worthless and you get the same info from GPS. Besides, who cares if you are at 10500' or 10600'? If you know where you are on the map, the topo lines will give you your altitude.

[Nean]

Even though I think it is more fun to hike without them for several reasons, I don't have any problem with those who do. Fiddlehead would be a good source. I'd contact him if you don't get the answers you need/ he misses this thread. BTW- bjack is getting lighter everyday! ENJOY

[Roland]

Blister,

I concur with tlbj6142. Resist the tempation to purchase a GPS with a lot of bells and whistles.

The yellow Garmin eTrex is a great value! The list price is $106.24. Amazon often sells it for less, including free shipping. It is simple to operate and can be learned in minutes. Because it has fewer functions, battery life is nearly double that of the other units mentioned. The yellow eTrex does have a computer interface (the cable is sold separately).

I absolutely agree with tlbj6142 regarding mapping functions. A postage stamp size map screen is useless, IMO. A GPS does not replace a real map.

Roland

[Frosty]

Don't worry about mapping functions as the backcountry maps don't show enough resolution.

This is simply not true. The map that comes packaged with most mapable GPS's is an average road map, but for $120 you can get Mapsoource, electronic downloadable topos for the entire country.

Garmin Mapsource has excellent resolution, good enough that I use my 60CS for bushwhacking.

Garmin has a demo on their website. Go here:

http://www.garmin.com/cartography/mapSource/topo.jsp#

and on the right side of the screen, under Mapsource VIewer, click on East, West, Alaska or Hawaii. Use the mouse to click the map and zoom in and in and in some on a mounain with which you are familiar. Keep clicking and check out the resolution. Use an area with trails, and the trail will likely be there, also.

The maps cost $120, and a GPS that will accept them will be at least $300, so they aren't cheap. But poor resoluton isn't a reason not to get them.

[Blister]

A virgin with a GPS that is, has to happen at least once in my life. Question as far as the way points are concerned....
The GPS that I am looking at can store trips. It also comes with software that I would have to load by the state. Question being can I store in the trips menu, multiple state markers? Meaning points in Wyoming and Colorado. I can't see the logistical nightmare of sending the software to each state I cross and then logistic of getting to a computer to load it all. Granted this is just a bach up mechanism to the good ole map and compass. I'm just trying to be prepared.

[Mags]

This is simply not true. The map that comes packaged with most mapable GPS's is an average road map, but for $120 you can get Mapsoource, electronic downloadable topos for the entire country.

[/url]

I'd much rather have larger overview than futzing around with a small screen. I find I often need the larger overview that the small screen on a GPS does not give. And, I often go off trail (without a GPS, mind you..though I have one). It is the KISS principle. I can pull out a 7.5 quad, look at the map and know where I am quickly. Or I can push buttons and zoom in and zoom out. No thanks.

My standard shpeel on GPS (originally written on PCT-L):


A GPS is a nice complement to a map and compass.
However, if you are weak with map and compass skill to
begin with, a GPS is not going to help you. A GPS is
good for what I call the "***" factor: "Where the
Frick" am I?!?!? I usually substitue a stronger word
for frick.

If you do not know how to read a map that well,
knowing you are at:
N 40° 00.222 W 105° 15.905
UTM: 13T E 477373 N 4428201

does nada if you can't place it on a map. If you can't
read a compass and know that Forester Pass is 20°
from the *** place on the map, a GPS won't help. If
you can't read a map, you won't know that the GPS
arrow is pointing you directly into a ravine between
you and the destination.

On the PCT, you should not get so lost (not LOST...if
you get LOST, you really are in trouble) as to not
know where you on the map. If you know where you are
on the map, you can take a compass bearing and plot
your course accordingly.

I find a GPS is handy for two situations:

1) A trek where I am doing basecamp and going off
trail Make the basecamp the waypoint. This type of
scenario does not (usually) happen on thru-hikes

2) Going off trail in places where there are not
really too many distinguishing landmarks (like canyon
country in Utah). Yeah...I can triangulate, but it is
easier to to press ON and know *** I am. Use a preset waypoint
to get back. Note: I've only done this above canyon in
Utah. When off trail in place with many distnguishing
marks (Colorado...or the High Sierra), find a GPS not
needed. Traingulation is pretty easy. Of course, I've
practiced over the years (see a theme? )

For a PCT hike, to really make the GPS useful you'll
need to do pre-set waypoints for various places
(Forester Pass, Muir Pass, etc.). Again, if you are
not confident using a map and compass, a GPS will not
help all that much.

.......

To make this post CDT specific: A GPS is a nice complement..NOT a supplement to a map and compass. The CDT can certainly help a little more with the *** factor more so than the PCT and certainly the AT. However, I find that out west, it is very easy to triangulate if need be. Read CDT journals on www.trailjournals.com. Some people swear by a GPS..some say swear at them.


PRACTICE, PRACTICE and do MORE PRACTICE with the map and compass.
A great online resource is:
http://www.learn-orienteering.org/old/

Many outting clubs will do an inexpensive course, too.

Also, if you want to learn more about GPS, this site
is great for the basics: http://tinyurl.com/3xmqa


And though it is too late for you, I plan on doing a LandNav 101 workshop at the ALDHA Gathering this October. If I can do this stuff..anyone can.

[Blister]

I got to learnn my basic map and compass back in 96 when I thru hiked the PCT with Fiddlehead and Rainman. It was alot of fun having at some times 4 people arguing over where we were and where we were headed. So I have the basics and the GPS will essentially be the back up. I do like the idea of having a new toy though

[tlbj6142]

This is simply not true. The map that comes packaged with most mapable GPS's is an average road map, but for $120 you can get Mapsoource, electronic downloadable topos for the entire country.

Garmin Mapsource has excellent resolution, good enough that I use my 60CS for bushwhacking.

A co-worker of mine has this software (found it somewhere for $60?) and on his eTrex Legend-C it appears to be about useless, the topo lines just don't show enough resolution and the map is too small to get a lay of the land sort of view. Maybe it was the terrain I was looking at (small hills with only 100-300' heights). But I have heard (read) similar comments from others.

[tlbj6142]

I find that out west, it is very easy to triangulate if need be.

Good point. The terrain has a lot to do with how easy a compass vs. GPS are to use. With small hills that all look the same, triangulation is a bit more difficult (not impossible), whereas when you have big fricken mountains, its almost too easy to triangulate.

Same is true for forest coverage, using a compass when you can't see more than 50 feet in front it is very difficult to triangulate. But, then, your GPSr might not get a signal either.

In flat areas, triangulation is diffiulct as well.

[Jaybird]

Need to purchase a GPS for my trip out west. As much as I would like to take along a voice activated trail guid, hhee, hhee, ha, ha. Instead I'm goin with the lighter version of technology. Any advice?

LEAVE IT @ HOME! hehehehehehe

[Frosty]

I'd much rather have larger overview than futzing around with a small screen. I find I often need the larger overview that the small screen on a GPS does not give. And, I often go off trail (without a GPS, mind you..though I have one). It is the KISS principle. I can pull out a 7.5 quad, look at the map and know where I am quickly. Or I can push buttons and zoom in and zoom out. No thanks.

Sure, that's personal preference. I have no problem zooming in or out, any more than handling a paper map in the wind

My response was geared to the comment that GPS's do not have good resolution. They do. They don't have postage stamp size screens, either, but zoom buttons, 2x4 in screens, and resolution aren't reasons for not having a GPS, just manifestations of a decision already made not to use a GPS.

Whether or not you want to use one is personal preference. Gas or electric stove? Standard or automatic car? Glasses or contact lenses? NOBO or SOBO?

GPSs and paper maps are less helpful if you don't understand terrain and navigation, but a total neophyte can look at a blinking cursor, see where he/she is, where the trail is, and where the road is. It takes skill to do that with a map. Finding where you are on a map takes skill. If you can wander around in the woods off trail, put out a paper map, and know where you are quickly, God Bless You. You must be part homing pigeon.

Going off trail, with or without a GPS is an adventure. I've found it much easier with a GPS. If I wanted to make it harder, I cokuld leave the GPS behind, but generally, I'm just goofing around in the woods..."Wonder if I can get to Chuckhole Road without crossing Skuzball Creek?" Or, I wonder if I take this unmarked snowmobile trail, if I can bypass Slog Summit?"

Usually I do not carry a GPS, especially if I am with a group. On the AT, I like the ATC map set.

Small screens are sometimes annoying. Someday they will perfect folding, paperthin electronic screens, but I suspect the anti-GPS crowd will find another reason to dislike them.

My own opinion is that GPSs are most useful to either end of the navigation-skillset extremes. Very knowledgable navigators can make full use of their capabilities. People hopelessly ignorant of navigation, and with no desire to learn, are also prime candidates to keep from getting lost. These are the folks who do not know how to use map or compass, and a GPS with mapping capabilities to them would be very helpful.

Middle of the roaders (navigation skill wise) could use either paper or GPS map to advantage.

[Mags]

S, and know where you are quickly, God Bless You. You must be part homing pigeon.

Or I just pay attention. There is LOST and there is lost. I have never been LOST. Put me in the middle of the woods where I have been blind folded then hit over the head..then yeah, I would get LOST.

G keep from getting lost. These are the folks who do not know how to use map or compass, and a GPS with mapping capabilities to them would be very helpful.

People who do not now how to use a map and compass should NOT be doing off trail. If they want to use trails, they should stick to something very easy to follow like the AT. Even then, if they can't read a a map they are SOL if something happens.

Much like a the person who advocated not carrying a shelter on the AT, I can not advocate telling people that a GPS is a good alternative to novices. If the batteries go, or the GPS breaks, they are SOL.

I'll sayt it again. A GPS is a COMPLEMENT not a SUPLEMENT to a map and compass.

You will not really know how to use a GPS unless you understand elementary navigation concepts.

Remember, I use a GPS (mainly in Utah) ...I just think the mapping tecnology is not up to snuff at this time. I am not anti-GPS. Just anti-solutions that don't work.

[Frosty]

People who do not now how to use a map and compass should NOT be doing off trail. If they want to use trails, they should stick to something very easy to follow like the AT.

Agree. They shouldn't. Can't stop them, though. I'm sure just as many boneheads get lost out west as back east. They don't carry maps and couldn't use them if they had one.

I can not advocate telling people that a GPS is a good alternative to novices. If the batteries go, or the GPS breaks, they are SOL.

True, but no worse off with a broken GPS and no maps than no GPS and no maps. I am in total aagreement with you that people who go into the woods should be proficient with map and compass and carry both. Where we disagree is that I think the boneheads who get lost don't carry maps and cannot read them in they did. Folks like this would benefit from having a GPS. The only problem I see is that it may make them even more inapparopriately confident than they already are, and given their lack of prepartion, they are unlikely to carry extra batteries, or even ensure that the batteries in their GPS work.

I'll sayt it again. A GPS is a COMPLEMENT not a SUPLEMENT to a map and compass.

Sure, but that is your opinion, not some kind of universal law. Looked at objectively, a GPS is merely an alternative form of a map and compass. Both perform the same function. Each have slightly different advantages and disadvantages. One is not always better than the other in all situations.

We all have preferences, and yours obviously runs to paper maps. But that only means it is the best way for your comfort level. Others have different opinions.

I'm not trying to be a punk, but your way isn't the only way or necessarily the best way for everyone. As far as novices go, as I said, it would be better if they learned to read map and compass and carried both. But of the people who get lost without either (map/compass or GPS) I think they would be better off with a quality GPS.

One case in point. A couple years ago about six youngsters got lost coming off Mt Lafayette. They went up in the winter and hit snow. On the way down, in a near whiteout, the leaders (who knew the way) outdistanced the slower followers, who came down just on the wrong side of the ridge and ended up in the Skookumchuck area.

They ended up in the trees in deep snow and no snowshoes, but continued believing they were headed for Franconia Notch. They were rescued, but consider what would have prevented the need for a rescue form the time they were lost.

(I know you can say they leaders SHOULDN'T have left their charges behind, but they did. The point is, six people on Mt Lafayette in a white out. At this point what good is a map? To them, no good becuasse they couldn't tell where they were in the white out. A compass could tell them to head west, but they were on the wrong side of the ridge and would have a horrible trip. A map-capable GPS would show them where they were, where the trail was, and where the Greenleaf Hut was. No skills required.

Again, I don't recommend people not learn how to use a map and compass. But I do acknowledge that people WON'T learn, and sometimes having a map-cabable GPS would save them.

Another case, again on Lafayette, was Brenda Cox last year. She died when she and her husband was confused in a whiteout and took off towards Garfield instead of the Bridal Path. Here a compass and map might have helped with several checks they could see that theywere consistently going in the wrong direction. In a white out, you really can't take one reading becasue the trail might not always go in its ultimate direction. With a GPS zoomed in high resolution, they could easily have seen within a hundred yards that they were on the wrong trail and turned back before it was too late.

And a hiker who died on South Twin here in NH, who was a ranger and very proficient with map and compass, tried to make it from the Bonds over So Twin and down Gale River Trail even though the trip to Zealand was closer. Reportedly, in a cell phone conversation, he was concerned that he would take the wrong ravine down towards Zealand. At 40 below and gale force winds on a treeless ridge, what good is a paper map? A GPS would have shown him when to turn toward Zealand.

I bought my own GPS a week after Brenda Cox died, influenced by her death and the ranger's. I sincerely believe that if either had the GPS I bought (Garmin 60CS) they would be alive today.

BTW, if I can, I'll attend your navigation prenetation at the Gathering. Two years ago, I wanted to attend a workshop you put on, but events conspired....

[Roland]

And the beat goes on........

[Nean]

Nothin better than a good ol bearing tree I'd say back in the day

[fiddlehead]

Blister, 1st of all there's 2 (main) reasons for carrying a GPS out there: 1/ to find out where you are on a map once you are lost. and 2/ to find a place/spring/trailcrossing/etc. that you have never been to before if course there's 3/ finding a place you have entered into the GPS because you were there before.
The newer GPS's also have a map inside and if you download the detailed version, can be quite good sometimes to help you figure out where you are. But beware the maps are very often not accurate or there is no trail!

I wish i knew your plans. Are you hiking the CDT? if so, look up Jonathon Ley, he gives out a CD of all the maps for free. (donations' accepted) you should go to the CDT-L to find out lots of info on routefinding and GPS. But you didn't say CDT. But knowing you, i have afeeling you are at least getting prepared for it. Great!
If not the CDT and you are just hoping to "stay found" and using a GPS to help you do it, first of all, it sounds like you are looking at one of the GPS's that has a map inside. The problem with these on the CDT is you would have to load software from a computer onto the GPS and that is just not feasible on the CDT. But if you are going out there for a week or two, you can do that at home before you go. Beware that the CDT on the maps is not always the CDT. The maps do not show the trail and there are many routes you can take. Bushwhacking about 25% of the time is the norm.
If you are using Forest service or BLM maps, you should learn to figure out where you are on these maps with a GPS using a waypointer guide. (i explain this in lynn wheldon's how to hike the CDT video) It is not very easy for a novice to learn but once you are completely lost a few times, you will get the hang of it. you can get therse waypointer guides at a store in Alburquerque called Holmans. They have both latitute/longitude and metric versions. I am used to the lat/long so, if you want me to try to explain all of this thru emails, i'd go that route.
Before i get into all that, let me know what maps you are using. If you are going to print your own before you go, you can add grid work to the maps which is a great idea because once you get lost, you can punch in one of the crosshairs of the gridwork and see how far and what direction you are from the point you entered. I'm hoping this makes sense, emailing this technique could be a challenge. Anyway, i am going to wait for your reply on the maps you have or don't have or where you are going before explaining too much.
If you are hiking in CO, they have TI or Trails Illustrated maps for most of the whole state (at least the rockies) these are the maps that all National parks use and they have tickmarks on the sides and top and bottom to give you the degrees in lat/long that will enable you to tell where you are. OK, waiting for your reply. fiddlehead

[MedicineMan]

http://www.garmin.com/products/foretrex101/

It uses 2 AAA's easily replaceable and weighs only 2.6 oz
You can download waypoints to it and upload tracks when you get back.
I've used it on the AT tracking a section then uploading and comparing what i just hiked to what the Mapsource programs thinks the trail is...reroutes stick out like a sore thumb. The clincher is the weight.

[neo]

i got one,dont use it neo

[ocourse]

I have a Magellan SporTrak Pro and use it a lot. The topo map is great and shows exact, minute detail for almost all areas. Sometimes it will lose communication for a short while, maybe down in valley. It shows most creeks, and it shows elevation changes, summits, mountaintops by name, etc. It is great for marking campsites to reach or to remember for future trips. It's good for marking trail access points, parking spots, etc. Mine only shows the A.T. in some areas, but it shows all the shelters. I use it planning a trip's logistics. It's easier for me to check out everything on my PC, like distance to be covered to get to water, etc. Then I can create a route or make waypoints to download to the GPS. I can customize the map's size and level of detail. I can also email the coordinates (in a format we both use) for parking spots to my hiking friends, to make it easier to meet at the start of a trip. Eliminates misunderstandings and the possibility of not being in the right spot while someone waits elsewhere!
There is a thread here about using a bike to shuttle for a hike - I used my GPS to plan such a trip. I was able to look over the elevation data (on my PC), determine how much uphill pedaling would be involved, and where to hide the bikes. I chose a spot near the Blue Ridge Parkway that I could tell was steep and most likely covered with brush. I emailed the "profile" of the bike ride part to my buddy, so he could check it out.
I can only backpack for a few days at a time, so the weight is worth it for me. I do carry a tiny paper map, too. I think GPS would be LESS useful on a long trip than for my short ones.