Whats the big deal about the Smokies permit?

[Max L]

Maybe some one can clear this up for me because every time I browse WB I see a thread about the permit system in Smokies and a lot people aren't big fans. I'm familiar with two park reservation systems. Isle Royale ; which never really seemed too strict but does charge for park usage. and the BWCA; which charges fees and is aimed at preventing people from overcrowding really popular entry sites; which is great.
All I know/think I know about the Smokies is that hikers are required to sleep in shelters when there's room, there is fee up to $20(not too sure about that is right?), and you have pick up paper permit before you enter.
I don't really see what the big deal is. As long as the money goes to the park system I've never minded putting money towards permits (Lord knows I've spent more money on things less worthwhile). And it doesn't seem too big of inconvenience to register.
Am I missing a deal breaker here?

[SouthMark]

Zactly... :-)

[SGT Rock]

I won't debate on if you should pay, I don't mind paying for services. But the system they are creating is not exactly user friendly. Their justification for why they are doing it has been a moving target, and it seems that it is more a solution looking for a problem to solve. The numbers for what they currently get in back country usage will likely not pay for what they have proposed it to pay for, and none of what it is going to go to improves anything about the back country.

[moytoy]

I won't debate on if you should pay, I don't mind paying for services. But the system they are creating is not exactly user friendly. Their justification for why they are doing it has been a moving target, and it seems that it is more a solution looking for a problem to solve. The numbers for what they currently get in back country usage will likely not pay for what they have proposed it to pay for, and none of what it is going to go to improves anything about the back country.

Zactly For me the money is not the problem. The problem is when I take a two week vacation to hike in and around the Smokies I've never had to be specific about where and when I am staying. I always stay in area's that don't require reservations and now all campsites require reservations. So many people take a really myopic view of this system and only see it through the eyes of somebody hiking through on the AT. The new system is far more encompassing that just what happens on the AT through the GSMNP.

[mtntopper]

I support the new fees. I hope by adding some more rangers they can cut down on those that dont get the proper permits, I have met many people in the past that didnt the permits under the old system. Do we know how friendly this new system will be, I dont think we can tell just jet, wait until it goes online and then we can get a better feel for it... I dont under stand your comment on the numbers........have you seen anything from the park service that we can make comparsion to

[Wise Old Owl]

Some of the previous posts suggested a buck or two to get into the park in a car would make more money.

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/whyfree.htm

[Tar Heel]

I had heard that they were gonna start charging for this but it must have just started recently. Me and a buddy hiked through the Smokies this past Fall and all we had to do was register for one of the shelters to sleep in, there was no charge. We were advised to pack our tents just in case there was no room in the shelter that we registered for (people staying there that didn't register for it) but we had no problems with room in the shelters. We had to fill out the form, the Ranger signed and dated it, gave me a copy of it, and told me to carry my copy with me on our hike, no problems.

[Rain Man]

Lot of sniveling and panties in a wad over small things that shouldn't be sweated. There's already an imperfect reservation system. Backpackers already spend tons of money on backpacking. No, it may not all be perfect immediately, but reserve demands for perfection for God. Some folks (not all) also simply like to whine about "the government" doing ANYTHING at all. That is the deal breaker for some.

Like you, I don't see what the big deal is.

Rain Man

.

[moldy]

Not so much the payment as the system of payment. It created a bit of a problem for Appalachian Trail thru-hikers. The place where the trail enters the park is not manned. You can't walk up to the counter and pay your 20 bucks and get your ticket. The only reasonable way to pay is, as you near the park, you to go to a town, or someplace, find a computer and a printer, then you can call the park and pay with a credit card then print out your permit. This is no problem at all for non thru-hikers. In reality for most thru hikers this sounds worse than it is. As news of this requirement gets out the easier it will get to find a place to print out your permit. One thing that will happen for sure is that there will be hikers this year entering the park on the AT looking for a place to buy a permit and not finding such a place, will march on in hopes of finding a place inside to park somewhere to buy one. If the park service would have made up there minds about this before those guide books went to print it would run a bit smoother. woulda, coulda, shoulda.

[ParkRat09]

I'm just glad I got in a solid 8 years of backpacking the GSMNP before these fees kicked in! Woulda spent hundreds of dollars camping if I had had to spend $5 every night to sleep in the woods. I would MUCH prefer they charge $2-5 per car to drive the damn Cade's Cove Loop plus they'd make WAY more money than charging backpackers!

[max patch]

The only reasonable way to pay is, as you near the park, you to go to a town, or someplace, find a computer and a printer, then you can call the park and pay with a credit card then print out your permit.

NO, the reasonable way for thru hikers is to print out their permit AT HOME before they leave as recommended by the ATC.

[colorado_rob]

I don't really see what the big deal is. ..
Am I missing a deal breaker here?

There IS no deal whatsoever. People rant. Sometimes I do as well. So what.

[SGT Rock]

I've got to head off to work, but for all the folks that think this is a good idea for them to raise funds: one of the main problems I've had (and other) is the paradox where the plan to charge hikers is actually likely to take more money out of their other budgets to meet the services they plan to provide. In the end this plan will cost them more money than it raises. I'll not go into details, just general numbers.

They plan to provide a new back country computer service with this, more man hours of paid people at a reservation center, and two paid and trained Law Enforcement officers to check the back country. If you take the current number of nights that the record people using the back country and then multiply that times $4, you don't generate enough funds to provide annual training, pay, and benefits to two part time LEO rangers. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the new computer system development and maintenance, or increased hours or new hire of anyone to work the back country office. To provide the services this fee is supposed to provide, those shortcomings will have to come from somewhere else in the GSMNP budget. So there is going to be a net loss in their overall budget for other services in the park. And this doesn't even take into account if the overall usage nights in the park drops due to this plan, which I think it will - and I'm not the only one.

Ya'll that think this is a good idea for raising fees, just think about those numbers and then honestly answer if you think this is going to be a good idea. If your answer is yes, then you gotta decide if it yes because you just want people to have to pay, or is it yes because you think that the budget getting tightened everywhere else is a good thing.

[JAK]

Exactly. It's money being raised by a reservation system to pay for a reservation system, in the name of a National Park.
Sucks.

[JAK]

The problem perpetuates itself because when systems like this work to raise revenue it encourages the Park administration to focus more on contracts for computer systems, electronic registration systems, computer kiosks, and all the other crap we are supposed to be leaving behind instead of real trail maintenance to protect natural habitat and species, like us, and boots on the ground rangers that if nothing else, are walking in nature, like us.

[moytoy]

Exactly. It's money being raised by a reservation system to pay for a reservation system, in the name of a National Park.
Sucks.

I'm not suggesting that our Park service would sink this low. But this is an awful lot like the small town in Florida that has to cops. Their paycheck depends on them writing speeding tickets.

[Tipi Walter]

Lot of sniveling and panties in a wad over small things that shouldn't be sweated. There's already an imperfect reservation system. Backpackers already spend tons of money on backpacking. No, it may not all be perfect immediately, but reserve demands for perfection for God. Some folks (not all) also simply like to whine about "the government" doing ANYTHING at all. That is the deal breaker for some.

Like you, I don't see what the big deal is.

Rain Man

.

Obviously you've never pulled a 10+ day backpacking trip and realize there's no way you know where you'll be on Day 7. The new rules (making all sites reservation only and then telling the nannies where you'll be every night) kills long trip spontaneity.

[Sly]

If the park service would have made up there minds about this before those guide books went to print it would run a bit smoother. woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Say what? From the 2013 Companion.

Backcountry Permits—Backcountry permits must be obtained before entering the
park—the thru-hiker fee is $20 for a seven-night permit. Please check current information
on new 2013 policies at <www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountrycamping>.
At publication, this was the deal: Purchase it on-line up to 30 days before
your planned entry of the park at <www.smokiespermits.nps.gov> or by telephone
at (865) 436-1297. You will need a paper copy; don’t count on fi nding a computer and
printer on the way. Opportunities to secure permits at the traditional “self-registration”
spots were very much up in the air.

[Sly]

Obviously you've never pulled a 10+ day backpacking trip and realize there's no way you know where you'll be on Day 7. The new rules (making all sites reservation only and then telling the nannies where you'll be every night) kills long trip spontaneity.

Maybe you've never thought about planning a trip and keeping a schedule before. It's not that hard. You get a map, measure the distance between campsites, notice the topography and elevations, think, "that's cool, I can do that", put in on paper in form of a permit.

[Tipi Walter]

Maybe you've never thought about planning a trip and keeping a schedule before. It's not that hard. You get a map, measure the distance between campsites, notice the topography and elevations, think, "that's cool, I can do that", put in on paper in form of a permit.

Ever get caught in a rainstorm causing the creeks to get too high? Every get caught in a blizzard on a ridge so you have sit put for 5 days? Ever have the squirts and want to pull a zero in your tent? It's called the Freedom to alter your route. The new rules eat options and choices.